Russian JWs in Serious Trouble - about to be banned

by Dogpatch 106 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  drew sagan

  I just want to comment on this notion of "blame".

  There really is enough of it to go around. Neither of the major players at the top of these organizations consider the adverage person. They make their decisions based on their own needs, goals, etc. The Watchtower is going to do what it thinks is in its 'interests' and the Russian Orthodox Church will do the same.

  When it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses 'dangerous' nature, there are really only a few doctrines that the state really can legitimatly complain about. Disfellowshipping and the coercing children to follow the blood doctrine are really the only two that come to mind.

  It sucks that the Watchtower organization is too stubborn to retract policies that are not only harmful to their members, but are also used to spark percecution from others. Its equally as shameful that others will blow out of porportion the dangers of the Witnesses, stating that if they are not banned they are an immediate threat to the state (which they are not).

  As with most things on this planet, the powerful choose the fate of the weak.
• 

  flipper

  Randy- Good thread. Thanks for posting this info. I hope this trend pops up in other countries as well who see the witnesses as a sect or cult and a danger to the common citizens and freedoms that all humans deserve to keep. Any hassle the WT society receives is alright by me. They deserve any bad karma coming their way
• 

  jonathan dough

  They do advocate shutting me up TO MY FAMILY if I say anything against them. Yet they are free to demonize me.
  They do advocate governmental curtailing of other religions' rights.

  We're talking about the law and your freedom of speech under the first amendment. They are not gagging you, but restricting their members, your family, from speaking with you in different ways. That doesn't violate the first amendment. The government hasn't passed a law prohibiting you from talking to them. If their demonization of you amounts to defamation then sue them. That's your right. But banning them isn't the answer. And I challenge you to illustrate one instance where they "advocate governmental curtailing of other religions' rights," in this world, now today, like the Russians are attempting to do.

  We're talking about the real world, the here and now, not a future theocracy and God's ultimate removal of wicked governments. And they aren't advocating the removal of current governments by men, and they are fully within their rights to want to obey the government that they subscribe to- the supposed theocracy, as distasteful as that might be; the more distasteful the more protected their religious free speech. They aren't claiming that man should go in and overturn current governments. You know that's not true. And advocating to God that he overturn Satan's governments is likewise within their rights.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-3.html#13
• 

  jonathan dough

  People should be free to talk of a revolution.

  They are not free to advocate an armed revolt against the US governement without suffering certain consequences.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1
• 

  jonathan dough

  but it would be another thing to say that they have the right to sell pamphlets and books door-to-door that spout hatred and make millions of dollars on the backs of their "volunteers" and do it all tax-free.

  But that's the way the system is set up. If you have a problem with that then write your legislator and see how far that will get you in changing the rules.

  You compare me to the Nazis because I see that government is responsible for safety and should have the power to do something. You don't want to debate, you just subscribe to an anarchy that everyone is free to do what they think is best.

  I don't know where you get that from. Anarchy? I'm defending the first amendment and other constitutionally protected rights. Nowhere did I say or can it be implied that there should be no rules. That is utter nonsense. Anarchy is a big word. Of course there is a time and place for government intervention, I even pointed that out. There is no right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. But we're talking about banning a religion outright. THAT is the Nazi MINDSET, and safety is their justification. And that is the issue of our discussion.

  If you support their "right" to say what they say, you should equally support my right to call for a ban, but just argue against the ban itself without resorting to attacking me.

  Obviously you aren't reading my post carefully because I said the exact opposite. I specifically support your right to call for a ban. Absolutely. Call for it. That is your right protected by the Bill of Rights. You just happen to be dead wrong and in this country, and among Americans who value our freedoms, banning religions outright is the stuff of dictatorships, facism, communism and other nefarious groups. I never accused you of stuffing Jews in the ovens. And don't regard all criticism of you as an attack on you personally because it isn't. I'm criticising your views.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#5
• 

  jonathan dough

  I can respect that without calling you "no better than [the Nazis]" or a facist or a communist.

  I'm referring to your view that this particular religion should be banned outright. Name calling? I'm equating your belief that the WTS should not exist with the facists and communists' identical views. If that is name calling, then so be it.

  Nobody is suggesting banning the individuals their rights. The ban is against the evil organization.

  Utter nonsense. You can't separate the two. You ARE banning individuals their rights if you ban their religion outright.

  Government would not let a corporation sell literal poison to the public,

  Try spending some time listening to right-wing talk radio. You want to hear poison? Hate speech? When is the last time you tried to shut them down?

  so we are free to debate and take sides on whether government should let people sell clear mind poison to people.

  I support your right. Debate away. That is the thrust of what I have been saying. Just don't deny the JWs that same right which you would do if you eliminated them as a religion.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-2.html#11
• 

  Finally-Free

  The Watchtower's policies:

  1. Isolate their members from mainstream society by insisting that members are "no part of the world".
  2. Discourage members from being involved with charities.
  3. Discourage members from being socially responsible by forbidding voting, political involvement, jury duty, and certain types of employment such as law enforcement.
  4. Undermine the legitimate authority of governments by declaring they are tools of Satan.
  5. Promote hate by teaching that God will destroy everyone other than their own members because "worldly" people are immoral and wicked.
  6. Destroy the social support network of their own members by shunning those who leave their ranks, isolating them completely. Compare with point # 1.
  7. Trample on rights of freedom of religion/belief while claiming to embrace such rights. Their "embracing" these rights is only for their own corporate convenience, and not for the benefit of their membership.
  8. Allow children to die as a result of refusing blood transfusions.
  9. Discourage education. Can you imagine what would happen to the economy of a country if even one quarter of the population were uneducated JWs? How many toilet cleaners does one country need?

  I believe the JWs are a menace to any society. I would support a ban if I was convinced it would work, but I believe it would have to be global in scope, and all the WTS assets siezed in order to be effective. For now I think education is the best way to go.

  W
• 

  Farkel

  Randy,

  : Evil Farkel says,

  Great. Start off your comments with an ad hominem. Break every rule of logic. I don't normally read a word past the ad hominem because the ad hominem is a thought-stopper for most folks, including me. I have to stop myself because I have at least two or three million ad hominems I could hurl back. Repartee is a burden and a curse for me. I'm good at it. That is a curse, too.

  The BEST arguments don't start with an ad hominem, they end with one. But only in moderation as Gary Busselman has taught me.

  Here's mine: yo' Momma wears Army boots. (I've got lotsa more of them!)
  
  We will have this conversation about growth in Russia in say, 5 years. Everything else is speculation. (Except the part about yo' Momma and the Army boots, that is.)

  Farkel, Moderation CLASS
• 

  wantstoleave

  King of North Russia? King of South Korea? I never quite understood all that King stuff. My dad would try and explain, but I'd tune out, just not grasping it. Robdar made sense with his post about those of us who still have relatives that are witnesses. I don't want to see my family suffer. I'm all for freedom of speech. If they are banned in Russia, then where next? The precedent will have been set. Big nation like that making worldwide news as banning witnesses will lead the way for other nations to take a closer look at Jw's. As a new fader, this is all a bit scary to be honest
• 

  Mary

  I'll assume that in the next few months, there will be either an annoucement at the meeting about how the Russian government has 'banned Jehovah's Witnesses' complete with the scriptures about "if they persecuted me, they will persecute you also". While I have sympathy for the average Witness in that country (who will bear the brunt of the ban), I have nothing but contempt for the Governing Body, because they bear alot of the blame for what's about to happen.

  From the days of Charles Russell, the Organization has written extremely inflammatory comments regarding every other religion on the face of the earth. The criticism has ranged from being relatively mild ('they have a form of godly devotion, but not according to accurate knowledge), to the outrageous (all other religions are spiritual whores as depicted in Revelation, are run directly by Satan and you will die if you stay with them). Yet when these other religions retaliate against their accusers, the WTS cries "persecution" and nods their head in satisfaction that they are God's 'chosen ones'.

  Russia is not the United State and it does not have "freedom of religion" so to state that they shouldn't ban the Witnesses is a moot point. I agree with what others have stated though: They'd be much better off educating people as to WHY the WTS is a dangerous religion---everything from the shunning family members to the blood issue. Put it on TV, the newspapers and the radio.

  I feel for the average Witness over there though, and hope this doesn't turn into another Malawi.