by javig 304 Replies latest watchtower bible
AGuest,
The "Source" is the Jesus who is fully God in Nature, not a created angel or other creature.
Also, if you trust in the Scriptures to point you to "the Source" then why do you not trust what Jesus says in the Scriptures -- why do you not trust the parts where He tells His followers to read and listen to the Scriptures?
Or, if you do NOT trust the Scriptures, then why would you try to contact the "Source" of the Scriptures?
Also, AGuest,
If God and Jesus are the "Source" of the Scriptures, then logically God and Jesus would NEVER contradict the teachings found in the Scriptures.
If the "voices" that you are hearing are contradicting the Scriptures, then why would you listen to them or trust these "voices"?
Why should anyone believe you?
And, AGuest, one final comment to you:
My Jesus does SPEAK to me, through His Word and His Spirit, through His inspired apostles and prophets from the 1st Century AD. And He commands us to read and study and obey the teachings found in the Holy Scriptures. In fact, Jesus condemns any angel or voice that contradicts the Gospel and curses them to Gehenna.
To aguest:
Ok..is that is your position I respect it…thanks for helping me understand why would someone see jesus as a god. I apologize for not answering you as quick as possible. I have a family to attend on the weekends. My family time comes first than you. Sorry if I did not meet your expectations on time…
I am not a lawyer but I am a simple mechanic that understand practicality and a lot of applications. One little thing wrong in the car could cost you thousands of dollars to repair it. One little thing wrong about who Jesus is will cost you your eternal state or everlasting punishment or everlasting joy. If you don’t know who Jesus is you don’t know yet who you are. But of course you already confuse about Jesus, the SON OF GOD, it shows how confuse you are about yourself….
You are right, testimonies can be used in a courtroom but the judge will never deny written evidence if there is one, right?... I doubt that…so lets let Jesus, the JUDGE, judge us in this subject, if he is a god or he is GOD in Flesh?...
simple illustrations about the Trinity
1x1x1= 1…this shows the unity, essence or divinity of GOD and each member having the same essence but yet one God
this shows how each hole is different from each other but yet united with the same dove (divinity)…
The body of Christ. Just one body but yet many members... Family. One family but yet many members in that family...Marriage. One marriage but yet two different persons unite as one. All of these are simple illustrations about the Unity of GOD as three distinct person from each other…..It is not Jesus becoming the HS after his resurrection as you stubbornly stated. read john 14-16 and you will see Jesus being distinct from the HS and the Father.
what you are saying “ And MY education and critical thinking abilities tell ME that people who teach that God and Christ are the same being... that Christ, the Son of God and HOLY One of Israel, is ALSO JaHVeH, the Father and MOST Holy One of Israel” ….is classified as Oneness Pentecostal, a totally wrong view about the Trinity. Please, if you really are a lawyer put your skills to work properly.
At last but not least, “Let us make man”, “like one of us” “Let us go down” Gen: 1:26, 3:22, 11:7. Notice God is speaking to himself not to angels.
With this I rest my case with you aguest:
You accused me of being a liar, deceitful, a man of “lack of faith”, Pharisee, blind guy, hypocrite, and you demanded to trust your lord words and your words without evidence. You call yourself a Christian with a quick judging attitude just because I don’t agree with your beliefs? That’s kind of deceitful from your part…anyway hope you have a nice time away…
R.I.P. my case
Javig,
Good points. Also The name Elohim in the Hebrew Text is plural.
Aguest;
The Jews in Jesus day tried to stone Jesus because they said he made himself EQUAL to God, by claiming to be God's son. Why did they feel he was making himself equal? One reason is because they knew that God could only beget God. Just like a human can only beget another human. Jesus as the Son of God is Equal to God in his very nature. While on earth he was lower than his father in position because he willingly gave up the glory he had with the father and became a man, so he could die on the cross for us. But upon his resurrection he received the glory he had previous with the father. (John 17:5)
In addition to the three in one comment that javig made; the bible says we humans are spirit, soul and body (3 parts) and yet we are still one human being. 1Thessalonians 5:23
Read these texts below in several bible versions to get the essense of what they are saying regarding the diety of Christ;
John 5:17,18
17 But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working." 18 Now the leaders wanted to kill Jesus for two reasons. First, he had broken the law of the Sabbath. But even worse, he had said that God was his Father, which made him equal with God.
John 10:30-33
30I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
In verse 33 when Jesus stated "I and the Father are one", the Jews correctly understood him as using a word for "one" that meant "one kind", meaning he was equal in nature to the father and thus he was God himself. That is why they said Jesus claimed to be God.
Peace, Lilly
What do we have now 6, 8, versions of 'God' and all sides claiming to be 'right' 'true' 'orthodox'.
No science here just philosophy and how a notion stacks up in someone's brain.
A little stroll thru Jewish literature would clear up so many things.
Dear Sister Lilly:
Do you not recall that when people who spoke the “words” directed to them to speak, that they often spoke with a certain forcefulness? Didn’t the apostle Paul speak with a certain kind of “boldness”? And did not many take his “boldness” of speech, like you, as pomposity? Many people, who object to the message, in turn, settle on the “pomposity” accusation to clear themselves from having to deal with the “message.” Are you, dear sister, like them?
--Inkie
Sir Undisfellowshipped:
You write, “[W]hy do you not trust the parts where He tells His followers to read and listen to the Scriptures?” And which parts are those? Exactly? Where is it written that Jesus ever said such a thing to his follows? Pray, tell.
Also, as good as the “scriptures” are (and I grant you they are good, to a point), you do recognize that they have been meddled with—tampered with, yes? Or do you not recognize that? Let’s assume, just for the sake of this post, that you do recognize that they have been meddled with. Wouldn’t going to the Source where the truth of things is untainted be a better place to go to rather than to a source that has been tainted? I should think that “your intelligence” would tell you so. Does it?
Apparently, you also missed something important in this thread. What? That while the Bible contains “some scripture,” the Bible also contains writings that are not “scripture.” Did you not know this? In answer to your assertion that “then logically God and Jesus would NEVER contradict the teachings found in the Scriptures,” you are correct. “God and Jesus would NEVER contradict the teachings found in the Scriptures.” Nevertheless, know that the Scriptures have been tampered with—Jesus himself said so. So then, do you not recognize that TO THE EXTENT that the Scriptures have NOT BEEN TAMPERED WITH, to that extent they are correct and can be relied upon as truth that “God and Jesus would NEVER contradict. . . ?”
You ask: “If the ‘voices’ that you are hearing are contradicting the Scriptures, then why would you listen to them or trust these ‘voices’?” Do you not realize that the only reason the “voices” would contradict what is seemingly “Scripture” would be because that particular scripture has been tainted with by the “false stylus” of the Scribe to whom Jesus said: “Woe to you Scribes.” Doesn’t that make sense to you? Really? Is it not evident to you now?
I do not recall Shelby ever saying that you or anyone should ever believe her. In fact, what I do recall her saying is that you and everyone should “go to the Source”—that Source being Christ himself. But you and others refuse to go to Him, just as He said people would: “. . . but you do not want to come to me [Jesus], that you may have life.”
You also state that your “Jesus” speaks to you. Excellent! I understand what “you” are saying and in what manner you are describing he speaks to you. When you say He speaks to you by his Word, I take it you mean the Bible because you believe that the Bible is the Word. My question to you, however, is when you say He speaks to you “by His Spirit,” what exactly do you mean when you say that?
You also write that “He [Jesus] commands us to read and study and obey the teachings found in the Holy Scriptures.” Again, pray tell, where in the Bible does it say such a thing? Do tell.
And lastly, you write: “In fact, Jesus condemns any angel or voice that contradicts the Gospel and curses them to Gehenna.” You are much mistaken and in error in this assertion of yours. Jesus said no such thing. You attribute words to Jesus that He did not say or write. Be careful doing such a thing. It was the apostle Paul who penned the words you misquote here. And, by the way, Paul did not mention "Gehenna" either. You misquote much. In Galatians, chapter 1, verses 8-12, Paul writes [not Jesus]:
8However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.
10Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I were yet pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave. [Sister Lilly: Does Paul sound pompous here?] 11 For I put YOU on notice, brothers, that the good news which was declared by me as good news is not something human; [Whoa! Did you read that?! “Not something human.”] 12 for neither did I receive it from man [Okay!!!], nor was I taught [it] [Okay again!!!], except through revelation by Jesus Christ. [And there you go!!!]
Sister Lilly and Undisfellowshiped, may Jah bless and the Christ shine upon you.
--Inkie
THis seems to be a older question but I will try to answer it for ya. OK in the Old Testament, Yahweh (YHWY) or LORD is Almighty God and there is no other God. Also he states Who was with me when I was creating everything. Ok and the New Testament Jesus states the THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I!! But the New Testament also calls Jesus a Mighty God and I think Stephen or one of his apostales says My Lord My God. Ok.. What you have hear is only one of the few contratictions of the bible. At one point there is no other God than Yahweh, then you have Jesus who's Father and God is greater than him and also gave Jesus authority and Jesus sits at his right hand is called a God or Mighty God as well... BIG CONTRADICTION. But it only makes sense to not agree on this subject because the Catholics or Constatine (the editors of the Bible) couldn't make up their mind if Jesus was God or God's Son. The bible said both. Hmm so can ya put 100% trust in contradictions????
There is no contridiction unless you decide to go beyond what is plainly stated in the bible.
No where is it stated that Jesus is God, no where.
It may be "implied" if one chooses to interpret it that way, but it is never stated as such.
It is however, plainly stated that Jesus and God are the same, are one, that Jesus was born(first) and all was created via Jesus, it is stated that Jesus is of the same form and in Jesus all that is god (deity) dwells in him, it is stated that NO ONE has ever seen God and that seeing Jesus is seeing God and in allthose instances never once do any of thr writers say that Jesus is God.
So, is Jesus God? is he A God?
Well, according to the NT, Jesus is:
Son of God.
The word, the light, the bread and the water, the spirit.
In perfect union with God, an exact representation of God, our Lord and our Saviour.
And now a little interpretation:
You can't have God without Jesus, nor Jesus without God.
We need to understand the difference between what is plainly stated and what that means and what is interpretation and what THAT means.
Jesus, God and the HS speak to ALL of us if we choose to listen, if we really listen, but that doesn't mean we know WTF we're talking about.
:)
Inkie,
I tend to be bold speaking myself when it comes to my faith. Do not get me wrong I am not against boldness at all.
What I refer to as pompous is when one Christian tries to tell another one that they do not have Holy Spirit because they do not see things the same way they do. And all because they cannot fathom the possiblity that THEY could be the ones who are in error. Thus they label their brothers and sisters in Christ as spiritually lacking, not faithful or not having Holy Spirit.
Maybe we (Christians) need a refresher in how to tell if someone does have God's spirit. See Galatians 5. You may be surprised to see that correct bible interpretation is not evidence of Holy Spirit. Peace Lilly
