is jesus a god?

by javig 304 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    The following is my response to your last post... and your questions:

    BUT… if I AM bothering you,...not at all...

    Then, again, I apologize. I do not know what your first language is but in MY language when someone says, "let me be" they are indicating that they don't want to be bothered (at all or any longer). I misunderstood because, as I have said in several posts, perhaps we should just agree to disagree and it has been YOU who asked to continue the discussion. Anyone who has been "watching" can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am in this.

    I SINCERELY apologize...i accept your apology, it would be ungodly for to refuse, but I must ask why are you apologizing for? I need an offense in order to forgive you or accept your apology. Forgiveness is a two way street not one.

    For "bothering" you... which is what I believed you to be insinuating. And your second sentence makes no sense, as many of your statements don't (i.e., "i accept your apology"... "why are you apologizing?"... "I need an offense in order to accept your apology"...). I think our language differences are causing us both some confusion.

    Please know that henceforth I will not address you at ALL, if that is what you truly wish…I did not said that I clearly stated I will be silence to let others prove your errors…here let me repeat myself…Let everybody in here be witness of your gospel, let them tell you, and please listen for once, you are wrong or at least give yourself the benefit of the doubt...in the mean time let me be....

    May I ask who “everybody in here” would be? Because, from the looks of it, “everybody in here” has not commented or even weighed in. Rather, only a couple/few who either (1) vehemently agree with you, (2) somewhat or greatly agree with me, or (3) disagree with us both. BUT… that is neither here nor there to me. The Body of Christ is not a democracy, dear one. We don’t vote as to what we believe is truth. We FOLLOW what the HOLY SPIRIT says is truth. EVEN… if others disagree. Indeed, in SPITE of the fact that others WILL disagree.

    But, YOU must make up YOUR mind, as my time is growing very short…I made up my mind. I will be silence regarding the subjects we have shared in the past and I don’t know when and what I will bring next time I post something.

    Here goes that deceit thing, again. NOW, rather than answer the question I have asked you, you’re using the current discussion (the question of “gods” and their/my “preexistence”) to deflect from that. To date, you’ve only answered part of the ONE question I asked you. As YOU wrote: “as I remember you asked me how many person there is in 2 cor 3:17 or something similar?…my answer is…ONE…if you want to talk about Jesus and HS being the same person we can do that but lets take one subject at a time.” Dear Javig, I am ready to “talk” about this part… whenever YOU are.

    In the mean time let the witnesses (those watching and reading our discussions) in here correct you and please have an open mind.

    My mind… AND my heart… are always open, dear Javig. ALWAYS. But, I will only accept such “correction” if it purports with what the SPIRIT has given me or will give me… which should at least have SOME foundation in the scriptures/verses such ones attempt to use TO “correct” me.

    You should make up your mind regarding your preexistence subject to tell or not…and in case you decide to tell… I promise you this… I will not use scriptures to correct you or to disagree.

    Well, okay, then, we have an agreement.

    Like I said before with something else…honestly I don’t even know with what at this moment…

    Ummmmm… not totally sure what you mean here… or with the icons following, but… okay. Now, back to your unanswered questions:

    I want to add more new questions regarding your preexistence

    Sure! But keep in mind, what YOU appear to be thinking as a “preexistence” may not comport with what such existence was. But… okay, let’s do it!

    1)…do you see yourself as human being right now?

    Yes

    I know you said you will become a god after your death but what about now? You see yourself as a human or god or both?..

    Literally, human only, for now. Technically, however, both, for now. Eventually, and eternally, a god. And NOT a deity… idol… or something to be worshipped. A god as in an immortal. I am human only NOW… because I am still flesh… with ITS blood. Thus, I am yet a mortal. But because I have received a token… and thus a guarantee… as to the “god” part, by means of having received GOD’s blood… holy spirit… I am being “regenerated.” At some point, I will be reborn… as an IMMORTAL. So, since it’s as good AS done… I can put my faith in it now. And although there are not a great many of us anymore, I am not alone. The Bible does tell you of this truth.

    2) is there a difference between humans and gods kinds

    Yes

    what is it?

    Humans are flesh… with its blood… and thus mortal. They must eat/drink physical food and water in order to survive for a few minutes/hours; however, their flesh will still die. They must sleep. They must pee and poop. They must breathe oxygen. They get sick and/or age. Thus, they die.

    Gods (with a lower case “g”) are flesh… with God’s blood… and thus IMMORTAL. These only eat SPIRITUAL food and drink SPIRITUAL drink… which is “manna”… and “living water.” They do not sleep. They do not pee or poop (all that they consume becomes a PART of them… so that they are strengthened even more… and ETERNALLY… and thus live FOREVER… and not for a matter of a few minutes/hours). Their flesh does not die; it must be destroyed. The Bible tells you of this truth.

    The life… is IN… the blood, dear Javig. God does not die, neither do they who have HIS blood in them. Adham died. So does everyone who has HIS blood… in THEM.

    3) where you get this belief and please don’t point me at the bible(you will be contradicting yourself)?

    I received this TRUTH from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, who is the Holy Spirit. He showed me all that I have shared with you: spirit beings, including himself. What they look like, what they eat, what happens when they eat, etc. What they do. How they originated. The spirit realm. What’s it in. The Ark. And more. And the Bible tells you of all of these truths, too.

    where did you get that info from?

    From my Lord.

    where is the evidence (if any)?if not ok

    For YOU… it would be in the Bible (I mean, that’s really the only “evidence” you will accept, right?)

    4) do you remember your early state and what you did back then”, if you don’t why not?

    Yes. I absolutely do remember my “state”… and what I “did” (or rather, was doing, which is not much, given my “state”). I was a mere seed… protected within the womb of the Woman, which womb is an Ark (like in the temple, not like Noah’s). Along with a kajillion other seed, I was just there. Not “doing” anything… yet… except being taught by my Lord. It was before the seed was ever sown here that he began to speak to it. Like an older brother speaking to the baby in his mother’s womb. And he told us many things… all of which he said he would recall to our minds at some later time. The “doing,” however, on OUR part… didn’t take place until the seed was sown here, in the physical realm. Then, there was nothing TO do.

    5) what was or is the purpose behind this journey, God created you as a god, then he send you to earth into a sinful body to later send jesus, another god to save you (another god)…Tell me whole purpose behind this?

    No, God did not create me as a god. Like Christ, I am a son. Sons of god by His FREE wife… are not created; they are born. It is the sons by the slave wife, the physical realm… who are created. The gods (spirit beings) that are angels were created. The gods (spirit beings) that are sons… are not; they are born.

    We, my brothers and I, of which Christ is the FOREMOST one… (and you could possibly be one – who am I to judge – God shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it ) - were just seed in the spirit realm (which I believe I told you earlier). Seed of our mother, Jerusalem Above, our Father’s “free” wife, who is the “Woman” depicted in Chapter 12 of the Revelation. We (the seed) had enemies in the spirit realm. So, until God could “fertilize” us with HIS seed… holy spirit… He “hid” us from our enemies by “sowing” us… in the PHYSICAL realm… the earth. Our “hiding” place… is the body of flesh… which was taken from the earth (through Adham).

    Adham was to be guardian of that seed; however, he sold it for his own selfish gain (to be “like” God). As a result of this action, Adham, who was created as flesh… with God’s blood, holy spirit, in him… was given a long garment of skin… with ITS blood in it… so that the man he originally was… became enslaved to the man… he became: flesh… with ITS blood. This kind of flesh CANNOT enter into the spirit realm (kingdom). It can be undone, however, by eating from the Tree of Life… which tree… is Christ, the TRUE Vine, the ROOT of Jesse, SPROUT!

    So, by his action, Adham literally sold that seed into slavery… to death… by means of committing an act that resulted in the seed being encased in a long garment of skin… flesh with its blood… which “garment” has sin… and death… in it. That is the state we (the seed) are in now. By means of Christ, however, we were REPURCHASED… by means of Christ giving HIS life… and so, just as Adham sold us into a “vessel”… the “garment” that enslaves us… Christ will RELEASE us back from the “vessel”… into the one HE earned FOR us: the WHITE ROBE… a spirit body… the CLEAN “garment.” The vessel/garment which Christ will give us is IMMORTAL. And we would have had such garment at the start had (1) it not been necessary for our Father to hide us from our enemies in the first place, and (2) Adham not “bargained” us into a mortal “vessel/garment.”

    But there is more: our Adversary also sowed HIS seed… right along with God’s. And these are growing, together… until the harvest of ALL seed. Although hidden in earthen vessels… bodies of flesh with its blood… both seed can be discerned now: by its love… or its hate… for its brother(s).

    6) I think that makes your God an unjust, unfair and inconsiderable putting you thru all this journey? If not, why not?

    I absolutely disagree! He did it to preserve us alive until we could be conceived by HIS spirit! What is unjust, unfair, and inconsiderate (sic) of that?! Our enemies in the spirit realm were seeking to destroy us and seek to do so still! Why? Because they want OUR inheritance: the spirit realm… which belongs to our brother and Lord, Christ, as HIS inheritance (as the FIRSTBORN of our Father)… and the physical realm, earth… which belongs to us, as OUR inheritance.

    Bring your answers…at this point I am willing to listen and please don’t use the bible as proof...

    I have done so and used NO Bible at all. But, it’s all in there, if you ever care to look.

    Couples of questions totally different from your preexistence subject

    I am your servant; ask away…

    …A) what if, if everything you belief is a lie? How would that affect you? Have you thought about that?....

    First, it is not a lie. Second, do you really think that I have not TESTED what I heard from my Lord? Although I admit I am not the “brightest” crayon in the box, dear Javig, I am also not your average idiot. If I were, I would still be “in” the WTBTS. Or believing in the Trinity. Or…

    I came to know they THEY were a lie… because a good deal of what those entities said did not have the RING OF TRUTH to it. Things just kept hitting “sour” notes in my ears. But I did not give up hope that there WAS/IS a truth. I KEPT asking… I KEPT seeking… I KEPT knocking. So, OF COURSE, when my Lord first appeared to me… and the kingdom of the heavens WAS opened to me, I asked questions. Lots of questions. TONS of questions. For days… weeks… months. And he answered every one of them. In TRUTH.

    And, initially, because I LACKED FAITH… he showed ME where EVERY ONE of his answers was “written”… IN THE BIBLE. He would TELL me… and then SHOW me. After while, I would just put faith in what he TOLD me… because I knew that if I looked where he told me, it would be there. Why require the “second” witness? I no longer needed it. It was then that he told me that some of what he would tell me from that point is NOT written in the Bible and that not ALL that is written in the Bible is truth (what he would tell me). So, because I LEARNED to trust him… by listening to him and putting faith in what he SAID… I learned to listen to his voice in TOTAL faith… not in partial faith with a little bit of skepticism.

    I trust him COMPLETELY now… so that I no longer need the Bible… or ANY writing… to “show” me in order to put faith in what I hear from him. I hear… and I believe what he tells me. Because HIS words… are ALWAYS truthful. ALWAYS. Without exception.

    B) will you put Faith and believe in what the LORD is telling me to tell you that you are wrong in everything you have said about Himself? If not why not?

    No, sorry, but I will not put faith in that. Because:

    (1) I do not know the “Lord” you are claiming to speak for; thus “he” is a “stranger” to me and I no longer listen to the voice of strangers.

    (2) MY Lord is not telling YOU that, because…

    (3) MY Lord would have told ME that he is telling YOU to tell me; indeed…

    (4) If MY Lord had something to tell me HE would tell me, himself; and…

    (5) If I didn’t listen to OR couldn’t HEAR what he was saying to me… he would SHOW me where it is “written”… in the “scriptures”… whether such “scriptures” are in the Bible… or in some other place. He would direct me to it… and I would find it.

    But NONE of these things have occurred. What HAS occurred, however, is that my Lord has told me that you are a false prophet. And your “fruits”… and now your false claim (that you’ve been told to tell me something) have shown him to be truthful. So, of course, I believe HIM.

    C) What book, other than the bible, you know that inform us about GOD and it is in print?

    There are MANY books that inform us “about” God. Both inspired and uninspired. But none of them can give you LIFE. None of them can open the WAY to God. None of them contain the TRUTH. None of them can LEAD you to God. None of them can get you INTO the kingdom. And none of them can get you before the face of the MOST Holy One of Israel Himself. There is only ONE thing… that can do this. Indeed, HE… can do ALL of these things: the Holy One of Israel, the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… the Holy Spirit.

    Well, okay! I have answered you completely and truthfully as to what you have asked. Will you, now, answer the remainder of my question to you? I.e., WHO was Paul speaking OF… at 2 Corinthians 3:17, which states: “Now, the Lord is the Spirit.” WHO is the Lord Paul was speaking of… and WHO or WHAT is the Spirit mentioned there?

    My peace remains.

    A slave of Christ, to time indefinite,

    SA

  • javig
    javig

    Ladies and gentleman…welcome to the great fight of who we areargument…here at this forum…presented to you by the written word of GOD

    At this corner we have…i am a god argument

    At the other corner we have…i am not a god argument

    Lets get ready to rumble: I am a god-vs-I am not a god arguments

    1 st round: lets hear the argument from the people and king Herod

    Acts 12 (King James Version)

    21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.

    22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

    23And immediately the angel of the Lordsmote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

    24But the word of God grew and multiplied.

    2 nd round: lets hear the argument from Paul and Bernabe

    Acts 14 (King James Version)

    8And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:

    9The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

    10Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

    11And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

    12And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

    13Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

    14Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

    15And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

    16Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

    17Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

    18And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.

    3 rd round: lets hear the argument from JAH and Jeremiah

    Jeremiah 10 (King James Version)

    10But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

    11Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

    4 th round: let hear the argument of aguest herself

    Literally, human only, for now. Technically, however, both, for now... I received this TRUTH from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, who is the Holy Spirit

    And the winner is

    Exodus 20 (King James Version)

    3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    “the sacred and ispired Scriptures are sufficient to declare truth”…Athansius

  • Awen
    Awen

    When the word god is used, it's to denote a position. In the Bible, as noted previously, anyone could be referrred to as god. Notice when this happens, the text ALWAYS uses the lower case "g" and the upper case is ALWAYS used in connection with Yahweh.

    In Arabic, "Allah" simply means God, it's not a name, just a title. Satan is referred to a "the god of this system of things". The angels have at times been referred to as gods. The definition of god is "mighty person", nothing more.

    Yehoshua (Jesus) is referred to as the Word and the Word was created by God and thru the Word all other things were created.

    To illustrate:

    You have a child and you teach him the skill of carpentry. You guide his hands, show him how to measure and cut. How to shape wood with his hands etc.

    Now, does that mean because your child was born from your seed that his skill immediately equals your own? By being God's apprentice (Jesus even references this) Jesus learned from the Master himself.

    If they were equal, Jesus would already have possessed this knowledge as trinitarians suggest and that would make Jesus a liar. So who do you believe the words of a man (Jeremiah 10:23) or the words of a "god"?

    Jesus admitted that there are things that the Father knows that he does not. When in duress, he also prayed to God to "remove this cup from me, if it was his will", showing the power and authority of that decision rested soley with God. The name of God, YHWH, means literally, "he causes to become" or "I shall cause to be what I shall cause to be", showing His position as Master Carpenter of the Universe.

    The name Jesus, transliterated from Aramaic and or Hebrew has several meanings, most importantly "YHWH rescues" or "YHWH delivers" showing yet again a subordinate relationship, one dependent upon the will and purpose of the other. One might argue that the "YHWH delivers" is referring to Jesus as YHWH, but the second part of the name (Christ) seems to show otherwise.

    Christ is derived from the Greek "Christos" (meaning Anointed One) which is itself derived from the Hebrew "Messiah" which is a king anointed at God's direction or approval". Also showing one sent by another.

    Jesus says he was borne from God, yet YHWH says he always existed. Jesus is referred to as the "Firstborn of All Creation", YHWH as the Alpha and the Omega, no beginning, no end. Unlike Jesus, God cannot die and he wasn't borne (or created out of another being).

    Jesus said "he that has seen me has seen the Father" denotes that since their relationship is so intimate, Jesus is the perfect reflection of God. When Moses asked to see the face of God, YHWH replied that no man could see his face and yet live. Were Jesus to in fact be God, then this verse would be false.

    So despite what trinitarians have tried to do, the cultural references and etymology of names (which cannot be changed at the whim of a scribe copying text or by the stroke of a clergyman's pen) hold the real truth as to the nature of God and Jesus.

    Despite the above posters assertion that to be understood, the Bible must be poured over and searched deeply for more meaning than what the surface text seems to indicate, when one considers the people the Bible was written by and for, this assertion doesn't hold much water. The Bible is throught provoking, but not so complex that a mere Sheperd Boy (such as David) couldn't understand it. It's this way purposely, so that no one person or organization becomes the sole repository of the knowledge the Bible and sets themself up as the sole interpreter of it. Unfortunately this is exactly what has happened.

    It has counseled billions over the ages and many people from the most educated theologist to the least undereducated field worker has found comfort and knowledge within it's pages.

  • AGuest
  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Well, Javig… I think ONE thing that has been PROVEN here… is that you are a liar, which I wrote and told you before:

    “I will be silence regarding the subjects we have shared in the past “

    I promise you this… I will not use scriptures to correct you or to disagree.”

    My goodness, you couldn’t even wait a full response cycle! YOU have PROVEN who YOU belong to, just as MY Lord is recorded to have said:

    YOU belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God HEARS what God says. The reason YOU do not hear is that YOU do NOT belong to God." John 8:44-47

    Oh, yes, I am using the Bible. Since you broke your word, I am free to do so. So, get in, sit down, hang on (tight, mind you!), and… well, I’m sure you know the rest. If not, I am sure someone here can help you. I will NOT “fight” with, however. I will state my case… ONLY for those watching (if anyone still is… and if you are, you have my SINCERE condolences!)… and then I will move on. Regardless of what you post in response. Now, then:

    from the people and king Herod -

    Acts 12 (King James Version) - 21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. 22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. 23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. 24But the word of God grew and multiplied.

    What is your purpose of these verses? Heron was ticked off at Tyre and Sidon and so when some from those regions came to him to supplicate for food instead of praising JAH… Herod got all dressed up, then sat down and began to speak to people as if HE were their god. In order the placate him (cause he was mad at them and they needed food), the people began to shout, “A god’s voice and not a man’s.” And Herod was immediately struck down. Was he struck because of what the people said? No. He was struck because he SHOULD have given the glory to GOD. Even Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and SON of God… always does that. The issue wasn’t that the people or even Herod called himself a god. It was that he FAILED TO GIVE THE GLORY TO THE MOST HIGH GOD. Read the account, again, please.

    As for your reference to verse 24, I find it interesting that you would even use that verse because it actually CONTRADICTS what you are teaching: that the BIBLE is the word of God. Neither the scriptures OR the Bible “grew” or “multiplied” here. It was the word ABOUT God… which word was spread ORALLY… and NOT by some book… that grew… and multiplied. We especially know that HERE… because Herod (Agrippa I) DIED… in 44 AD. The ONLY book of the NT even potentially written by THEN (and even that is suspect because MOST scholars believe it to have been written after 70 AD)… was Matthew’s account. Luke’s account of the Apostles’ acts was written after 60 AD, close to 20 years later, if not even later than that. So, what WORD are you using this account to refer to? Because it CANNOT be the Bible. Moving on…

    the argument from Paul and Bernabe

    Acts 14 (King James Version) - 8And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: 9The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men . 12And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. 14Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. 18And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.

    Okay, I get it: I am going to have to explain all of what you’ve posted to you. Okay. The PROBLEM here is that the people of Lystra worshipped FALSE gods: Jupiter/Zeus, and Herme/Mercury. You know, like in Greek/Roman mythology. Gods that didn’t exist! So, here come Paul and Barnabas, performing miracles… and INSTEAD OF GLORIFYING THE TRUE GOD… the MOST Holy One of Israel (because that was HOW Paul and Barnabas were ABLE to do what they did – heal a lame man)… they considered Paul and Barnabas to be these FALSE gods. Gods who do NOT exist at all! This greatly grieved Paul… as it would ME… if someone started glorifying ME… and as a FALSE god… rather than glorifying and turning to the TRUE God.

    Paul told these, as I told YOU… we are HUMAN… NOW. We have not yet RECEIVED our glory, but only a TOKEN of it, as I WROTE to you:

    “Literally, human only, for now. Technically, however, both, for now. Eventually, and eternally, a god. And NOT a deity… idol… or something to be worshipped. A god as in an immortal. I am human only NOW… because I am still flesh… with ITS blood. Thus, I am yet a mortal. But because I have received a token… and thus a guarantee… as to the “god” part, by means of having received GOD’s blood… holy spirit… I am being “regenerated.” At some point, I will be reborn… as an IMMORTAL. So, since it’s as good AS done… I can put my faith in it now. And although there are not a great many of us anymore, I am not alone. The Bible does tell you of this truth.

    At the time you’re referencing, when Herod Agrippa I was still alive… while Paul may have received his token, the holy spirit, he was simply acknowledging that he was still a human:

    Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:12-14

    But, by the time he wrote his third letter to the Corinthian congregation he, too, knew his hope was sealed:

    “Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

    “In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13, 14

    Methinks you need to lose that KJV… and find a more “modern” translation to read. Better yet, go to God, THROUGH Christ… and ask HIM to send you HIS Truth, Christ, the Holy Spirit.

    the argument from JAH and Jeremiah

    Jeremiah 10 (King James Version) - 10But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

    Dear one, this is speaking of the gods that have NOT made the heavens and earth… the gods of the EARTH… the VALUELESS gods… who the people put THEIR faith in and worship... rather than worshipping the MOST Holy One of Israel:

    The LORD [will be] terrible unto them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and [men] shall worship him, every one from his place, [even] all the isles of the heathen.” Zephaniah 2:11

    Spirit beings, whether angels… or sons of God… are not “of the earth.”

    let hear the argument of aguest herself

    Literally, human only, for now. Technically, however, both, for now...I received this TRUTH from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, who is the Holy Spirit

    Indeed. And I stand by that truth… just as I stated it to you… and Paul wrote of it.

    And the winner is

    Exodus 20 (King James Version) - 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    And I have neither spoken of… nor written about… ANY gods… BEFORE the MOST Holy One of Israel. Indeed, I have not even placed anyone EQUAL to Him. But you have, One that even he himself didn’t go so far:

    Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father : for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28

    “the sacred and ispired Scriptures are sufficient to declare truth”…Athansius

    “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Holy One of Israel… who is the Holy Spirit and the Son and Christ of the JAH of Armies, the MOST Holy One of Israel…

    "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.” JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Holy One of Israel… who is the Holy Spirit and the Son and Christ of the JAH of Armies, the MOST Holy One of Israel…

    Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Holy One of Israel… who is the Holy Spirit and the Son and Christ of the JAH of Armies, the MOST Holy One of Israel…

    “For the Lord is the Spirit…” PAUL, formerly Saul [of Tarsus] an Apostle to the nations and a slave of Christ

    “And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’” THE APOSTLE JOHN, as a result of a revelation given to him by angel, which angel received it from my Lord and Master… JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Holy One of Israel… who IS that [Holy] Spirit and the Son and Christ of the JAH of Armies, the MOST Holy One of Israel… who received it from the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies Himself

    My peace remains.

    A slave of Christ, to time indefinite,

    SA

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Who do I trust..

    Aguest/Shelby..or..Javig..

    Shelby is good for her word..

    And..

    She`s Frigg`n smart..

    She nailed Javig`s Ass to the wall,with his own lies..

    Thats what happens..

    When you mess with someone,trained to be a Lawyer..

    And..

    Speaks truthfully..

    If I were to be a Christian..I would choose Shelby as an Example..

    Javig..

    You loose this debate..

    ....................... ...OUTLAW

  • javig
    javig

    To aguest:

    My last post was not personally to you ...thats why I did not write “to aguest”..now this post is personally to you that’s why I wrote “to aguest”…please pay attention and stop assuming

    I wrote that post for everybody, not you, to see what the bible tell us vs your words…it wasn’t directed to you…I said before I will be silence in the subject we discuss in the past to let others correct you. That agreement was between you and me. I am free to share with everybody about the subject we had shared. And I will not correct you about your “little god” theory even if you want me to.

    I want to say thank you for sharing your revelation about your preexistence theory…did not sound convincing but thanks. You forgot to answer my question “c” where are those books in print? …in other words… where can I find them… I already own one, the bible…what about the others uninspired and inspired books, where can I find them?

    Sicne we clear that out, now we can share the subject about Jesus and HS being the same person. I will answer your question of 2 cor 3:16 for the 100 th time. But not at this moment.

    To outlaw:

    Please don’t trust me…double check if what I said is biblical or not, I rather want you to trust the truths found in the bible but not me. You choose Shelby as a Christian example? Ok…then again I ask you to double check her theology about Jesus and humans views…unless you are an individual cult like Shelby/aguest……..as you see I am directing you to a single written source, the bible, while aguest wants everybody to trust her words and her lord without evidence, and the evidence she uses, the bible, is always out of context and twisting scriptures and script torture. If she is really lawyer she would know that without evidence in a courtroom the case will not go far…

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    My last post was not personally to you ...thats why I did not write “to aguest”..now this post is personally to you that’s why I wrote “to aguest”…please pay attention and stop assuming

    I wrote that post for everybody, not you, to see what the bible tell us vs your words…it wasn’t directed to you…I said before I will be silence in the subject we discuss in the past to let others correct you. That agreement was between you and me. I am free to share with everybody about the subject we had shared.

    You are SO full of deceit that this comment is not even worth responding to.

    You forgot to answer my question “c” where are those books in print? …in other words… where can I find them… I already own one, the bible…what about the others uninspired and inspired books, where can I find them?

    Start with: The Book of Jubilees, The Book of Enoch, The Gospels According to Thomas, Barnabas, and Mary. You might even try the Photoevangelion of James. Once you get through these... then perhaps we'll talk again. I highly doubt it, though...

    Sicne we clear that out, now we can share the subject about Jesus and HS being the same person. I will answer your question of 2 cor 3:16 for the 100 th time. But not at this moment.

    Of course, "not at this moment"... again. But no, we will not have that discussion. As I told you, my time was short. I am done here. I will not respond not matter WHAT you post... and whoever's watching can believe, think, conclude, dedeuce, summize, or believe... what they wish.

    The peace that I have wished you from the start... will return to me. Because you have been a liar from the start, and so I cannot believe that your greetings of peace to ME... were truthul or honorable.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    As always, thank you for your kind words, and may JAH bless! May His undeserved kindness and mercy and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Holy Spirit of God... be UPON you... and WITH you... my dear friend, to time indefinite. And, yes, I saw the other. We will "speak" later.

    YOUR servant, sister and a slave of Christ... to time indefinite,

    Shel

  • IwateBuddy
    IwateBuddy

    Let's face it, not many people around today know Ancient Greek. It's also been my experience that most Jehovah's Witnesses don't know it either. In fact there is even an article in the November 1, Watchtower, "Do You Need to Learn Hebrew or Greek?" where the answer is not surprisingly "NO"! Why? "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" (p.21). Wow.

    After looking over a bunch of websites and studying with a JW for the past couple of months, I find that a lot of people are discussing and trying to understand complicated Greek grammar when they don't need to. Here are some of the positions my JW 'friend' has thrown out and how I responded.

    1. There is no article in front of the second theos in John 1.1 so it means 'a god'. Pull out your (or his) interlinear Greek-English NT and ask him (I use 'him' as it is a male JW that I am studying with) to not look at any Greek but only English and follow along. Starting at John 1.2 ask him about every instance of the word 'God' whether he thinks it has an article and refers to God/Jehovah, i.e. the first God in John 1.1 or "a god" i.e the second God in John 1.1. Probably he will guess correctly about "ton theon" in v.2 and sart feeling smug. But then in v.6 he will probably guess that there was a man sent from the first God rather than the second. He is wrong! There is no article - para theou it reads. Dropping down to verse 18 you will see two references to God there and no JW can guess those correctly! "No one has ever seen God." But there is no article. According to them it should read, "No one has ever seen a god." Keep going if you have to. There is no way to make coherent theology out of an article or its absence. If they are still not convinced turn to John the Baptist. How many Johns are there? In John 1.15 there is no article before the name John. Who is this John? At verse 19 there is an article so it must be "the" John. What a tangled web they weave!

    2. "At this point the word theos doesn't mean 'god' it means 'divine,'" they say. Ask them to show you any other place in either the New or Old Testaments where the word theos means 'divine.' They can't do it. Stumped again. In fact ask them to show you any place in Greek literature where it is translated 'divine.' They can't do it. Pull out your handy dandy unabridged Liddell and Scott Greek English Lexicon which covers the entire Greek language from its beginnings through the 5th century AD (or photocopy the page at your local library), and look up the word theos on page 791. Ask your JW frind to show you where the word means anything but God. Good luck. You can even check the supplement on page 70 and you won't find it there either. Now ask why its translated 'divine' in this one place only in all of Greek literature and only by JW! They should be feeling a little foolish by now.

    Another difficulty, not related to Greek per se, is at John 20.28 Thomas sees Jesus and says, "My Lord and my God!" JWs cannot explain this so they say Jesus was surprised and did not correct his disciple. They use the exact opposite explanation at Matthew 4.8,9 where Satan took Jesus to the top of a tall mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. In "What Does the Bible Really Teach" on page 37 of my large print edition it reads, "Jesus did not deny that all these worldly governments were Satan's Surely, Jesus would have done that if Satan was not the power behind them." Maybe Jesus was just surprised? Then how about Acts 12 23,24 where the crowd calls Herod a god and an angel of the Lord strikes him dead because he did not deny it! Why didn't an angel of the Lord strike Jesus dead for not denying it back at John 20.28? "Well," my JW 'friend' says, "It's not the same because Jesus is a god!"

    Any comments on this strategy with JWs would be appreciated.

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