Child Molestation and the Two Witness Rule

by garyneal 26 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

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  life is to short

  I do not have the time to read all of the thread but I can tell you that it is very true about pedophiles. The elders in my hall called me lair to my face about a brother who was a child molester in my hall they refused to believe it. So I got the court records to show the elders that he is indeed called a sexual psychopath and they refused to look at the court records. This man is around children in the hall no parents can know his past. He goes door to door. Loves to go door to door said he likes to talk to young ones at the door once at the service meeting. Lovely right!

  It is scary and wrong. Who wants a psychopath child molester teaching them the Bible. Even with the court records the elders will not stop this man. We also had a level 3 dropped down to a level 2 sex offender taking care of children all with the total blessing of the whole body of elders. He was taking them into the back room alone and outside alone.

  I know you cannot not convince your wife she is blind. It is very stupid to be so blind.

  The saying goes evil prevails when good people do nothing.

  I am trying to talk but it is hard so many are like your wife even when it is provable they will still try to talk around it. Crazy making at its finest.
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  MadGiant

  "For example, the policy of shunning disfellowshipped people (including family) is something she has never seen happen in her personal experience. The disfellowshipped ones are still treated nicely by their JW family according to her experiences."

  ***lv pp. 208-209 How to Treat a Disfellowshipped Person***
  
  What if a relative is disfellowshipped?
  
  In such a case, the close bond between family members can pose a real test of loyalty. How should we treat a disfellowshipped relative? We cannot here cover every situation that may arise, but let us focus on two basic ones.
  In some instances, the disfellowshipped family member may still be living in the same home as part of the immediate household. Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. Yet, by his course, the individual has chosen to break the spiritual bond between him and his believing family. So loyal family members can no longer have spiritual fellowship with him. For example, if the disfellowshipped one is present, he would not participate when the family gets together to study the Bible. However, if the disfellowshipped one is a minor child, the parents are still responsible to instruct and discipline him. Hence, loving parents may arrange to conduct a Bible study with the child.-Proverbs 6:20-22; 29:17.
  In other cases, the disfellowshipped relative may be living outside the immediate family circle and home. Although there might be a need for limited contact on some rare occasion to care for a necessary family matter, any such contact should be kept to a minimum. Loyal Christian family members do not look for excuses to have dealings with a disfellowshipped relative not living at home. Rather, loyalty to Jehovah and his organization moves them to uphold the Scriptural arrangement of disfellowshipping. Their loyal course has the best interests of the wrongdoer at heart and may help him to benefit from the discipline received.-Hebrews 12:11.
  
  
  ** w07 1/15 p. 20 Remaining Steadfast When a Child Rebels ***
  
  The situation is different if the disfellowshipped one is not a minor and is living away from home. The apostle Paul admonished Christians in ancient Corinth: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." (1 Corinthians 5:11) While caring for necessary family matters may require some contact with the disfellowshipped person, a Christian parent should strive to avoid needless association.
  
  *** w83 1/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
  
  Another sort of loss may be felt by loyal Christian grandparents whose children have been disfellowshipped. They may have been accustomed to visiting regularly with their children, giving them occasion to enjoy their grandchildren. Now the parents are disfellowshipped because of rejecting Jehovah’s standards and ways. So things are not the same in the family. Of course, the grandparents have to determine if some necessary family matters require limited contact with the disfellowshipped children.
  
  *** w81 9/15 p. 29 par. 18 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped . . . ***
  
  The second situation that we need to consider is that involving a disfellowshiped or disassociated relative who is not in the immediate family circle or living at one’s home. Such a person is still related by blood or marriage, and so there may be some limited need to care for necessary family matters. Nonetheless, it is not as if he were living in the same home where contact and conversation could not be avoided.
  
  *** w70 6/1 pp. 351-352 Questions From Readers ***
  
  Again, the disfellowshiping does not dissolve the flesh-and-blood ties, but, in this situation, contact, if it were necessary at all, would be much more rare than between persons living in the same home. Yet, there might be some absolutely necessary family matters requiring communication, such as legalities over a will or property
  
  *** w70 6/1 p. 352 Questions From Readers ***
  
  But until that happens, faithful Christians have an obligation to uphold the disfellowshiping action by avoiding association with the disfellowshiped individual. If that one is a relative living outside the home, they will try to have no fellowship with him at all. And if some unavoidable and absolutely necessary family matter comes up, they will keep contact with that one to a bare minimum, definitely not having any interchange of thoughts on spiritual matters.
  
  *** w63 7/15 p. 443 Family Responsibilities in Keeping Jehovah’s Worship Pure ***
  
  The disfellowshiping of a relative does not cancel out natural blood ties. However, it would be well to appreciate that only the contacts absolutely necessary in matters pertaining to family interests should be carried on with one who is disfellowshiped and who lives outside the family circle.

  Take care,

  Ismael
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  carla

  Your conversations sound like ones we used to have around here only a bit milder! Get Babara's cd -'Secrets of Pedophilia in an American Religion-Jehovah Witnesses in Crisis' it has actual court documents to look at.

  What is with jw's or when they are just joining up they hide money and accounts? Mine did too. This was completely foreign in our marriage before he became involved with jw's.

  You can find on your own court documents where jw's admit on the stand that they were told not to report abuse, etc.... You can find these documents on line and from different countries. Takes a bit of leg work but is possible. You can also find some in public records, again check out Barbara's cd to get started. Years ago I found an Australian case that was posted on line but it seems to have disappeared since, wow, Aussie courts do not hold back! I couldn't even finish reading that case.

  When my jw was first joining up he also did not believe the shunning issue and of course said a very few bad apples (apostates) are just spreading lies blah, blah, blah. Fast forward a few years and (while he was still allowed to discuss anything jw with me) we were arguing about the shunning issue (yes, once again) and he said a friend of his in the kh, a higher rankings son was being df'd. I asked him 'you mean to tell me if we were out and saw him you would not say hi nor even look at him?' By this time he was fully indoctrinated and said yes as easily as saying yes to cup of coffee. Made me sick.
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  Heaven

  I then said, "If being a Jehovah's Witness is such a good thing and improves attitudes and marraiges, prove it. Why should I become a witness if this is what they allow or even condone?" She said, "Why should I try to prove anything?"

  This is an interesting question from your wife. Next time, tell her 'Because God says you have to. It's in the Bible.' And give her 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good." KJV

  Maybe some of the people on this board can relate and/or share their testamony.

  No JW is going to believe pedophilia exists until it happens to them or to someone they know because JWs are under mind-control to believe they are God's chosen. When you are this special, you don't have this kind of ugliness going on. This is how they think.

  Recently, my father told me that his previous congregation had a pedophile amongst them and that this man molested a daughter of one of the JWs who happened to be a lawyer. The lawyer did not accept the WTS position. They disfellowshipped him. The pedophile remained. This pedophile then turned on his own daughters. There is a story on the web about it although it does not mention the lawyer or his daughter, just the pedophile's daughter. My understanding is that the incident with the lawyer and his daughter happened years before this incident.

  http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw125.html

  Make no mistake... pedophiles are among JWs. And because no background checks are done on people, and because of the beliefs of the WTS/JWs, this makes them attractive targets for these criminals.
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  Georgiegirl

  So sorry - I can't imagine how frustrated you feel.

  One of the challenges (not that you don't know this) is that ANYTHING you say will take second place to anything they say. The WTBS has been very clever in what they say in print...and what they say in print HAS changed since Barbara and since the financial settlements...and the R&F won't THINK. This is what could happen, so be prepared.

  She goes to the elder & his wife and ask. They haul out the articles on pedophilia AND the question from readers AND the "new light" that says it doesn't have to be two witnesses to the same event - it can be two different witnesses to different events at two different times. They will show in writing that members have the right to decide if they will report it or not. She feels you have now been completely discredited and have been fed false information by apostates.

  You have to have every single one of your facts correct when confronting a JW - and that's tough because the "facts" change constantly.

  Of course, the reality is - how pedophiles are dealt with internally is not reflective of stated policy. We all know that as the stories above show. But, until it happens to your wife personally, she will NOT believe you. She has been trained to disbelieve and distrust anything that is not WTBS.

  I am curious - what is her PERSONAL reason for believing this is the truth? Find THAT out and work from there. It's different for each person, so just arbitrarily throwing things out there like 607, or UN, or pedophiles, or mistranslations of the WT will only increase the persecution complex and have her dig in deeper to defend. Find out what specific reason or reasons she has. Pin her down to them. Once she says "X" is THE reason why I believe this is the truth, you have a starting point.
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  OnTheWayOut

  I understand that when it happens, the parents cannot report it to the police until the elders are consulted first. The elders require 'two witnesses' to validate the charge or otherwise, the offending brother is not disfellowshipped. Where will one find 'two eye witnesses' other than the offender and the victim in such a case? If the brother is not disfellowshipped, the parents of the victim are discouraged from contacting the authorities for fear of 'bringing reproach upon Jehovah's name.'" She did not believe this and stated that if something happened to our daughter, she would verify it first and if necessary press charges.

  Watch out. If she goes to challenge your statements, then she will be told that this is not at all true. They have updated their policy to say that people should never be discouraged from going to the police. So she will say that what you said is false. IT WAS TRUE. Still, the elders require the two witnesses (or a confession) to bring about the disfellowshipping. Also still, parents or victims are discouraged from 'telling' others in the congregation anything. They are either spreading unsubstantiated claims where there are not two witnesses or they are gossiping about a situation. So they still discourage full disclosure in the cong.
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  greenie

  Gary - your wife sounds just like my boyfriend. And your reasoning and tone sounds a lot like mine - wild! I can really relate! I always like reading your posts because I can relate to them so much. I couldn't agree with you more on these points:

  I said, "I understand, but you got to understand the uniqueness of your religion. They put down all other religions claiming that they are the only ones who are right and then act in ways that make them out to look like hypocrits." We have the same discussions. He feels I dislike his views just because he's a JW, but the real reason is because what you tried to tell your wife in the above. If we were different denominations or relgions in most cases both of our beliefs could be respected and accomodated. However, PURELY because he is a JW, they cannot. Unfortunately, I think this makes him think more than he's got the right religion (I hear about the path being narrow, the group being small, etc. A LOT).

  The fact that many posters here are atheists would certainly seem to play into the Watchtower's hands concerning those who leave the 'truth.' Though I can understand why someone who was hurt by the only religion that they knew, the religion that claimed to be the only true religion, would wonder if this whole God business is for real. I too see this and understand what you're saying. It seems like a lot of people here have been so hurt by a religion that literally sucks you in, chews you up, and if you leave, SPITS you out, that they seem to go the opposite direction and forget religion all together. I get nervous sometimes that that's what my JW might do if he ever left the religion. I think it's very damaging spiritually to be taught from birth that yours is the only right religion. That doesn't leave anything for you if you leave.

  Carla, I guess we must sound alike too, on a calmer level.

  I tried to talk to my JW about the child molestation issue, and he of course didn't believe me. He said the same, of course you can report it to the police, etc., etc. I need to find articles and whatnot online about victims' experiences, especially about the law suit and gag order. It's also an interesting point that the Catholic church said they would never make victims sign gag orders. Gary, Carla (and anyone else), have you noticed when you start talking about these things how blindsided they seem to be (this could also explain their "my way or the highway" response). I can't believe they've never heard or seen this stuff. You can bet your bottom dollar that there isn't a Catholic that hasn't heard about their sex abuse issues. How do they keep these people in the dark!!?!?

  Gary, how do you handle your daughter's religious education? Is she old enough to know anything? Any ideas on how you will handle that?
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  garyneal

  jamiebowers: I watch that video last night. It is terrible for all parties involved. Why penalize the victim and let the offender continue on without consequence makes little sense to me. I especially could not fathom why the elders in that one incident would not inform the victims family about the abuser when they knew about the abuse.

  life is too short: Ignoring court records? Now that's when you know something isn't right. I can understand the whole forgiving thing if the crime is in that person's past, I can even understand the elder's trying to help this guy start a new without the prejudice if this guy is truly repentent, but parent's will still want to know that information. I as a parent would be cautious and not leave my daughter alone with such an individual even as I try to show kindness to him, its a tight line every parent walks. Recently, a convicted sex offender was made pastor of a small church (in Kentucky I believe), it made national news so obviously the people of the church knew of his past and forgave him.

  MadGiant: Thanks for all of the Watchtower quotes concerning their shunning policy.

  carla: What is with jw's or when they are just joining up they hide money and accounts? Mine did too. This was completely foreign in our marriage before he became involved with jw's.

  In my wife's defense, our financial problems are probably similar to other couple's. I can definitely say that they are somewhat similar to my parents' which in and of itself is telling. She probably hid the fact that she went in the hole for $500 because I have not been too impressed with how she handles money to start with. She probably wishes to avoid the 'lectures' about money as she refers to my ramblings. I can appreciate that and I have been trying to work with her and meet her half way. However, when she cops this attitude with me concerning the whole idea that I should just be happy in how she is handling the funds as long as I have a roof over my head and food in my belly, I find that a bit demeaning. I mean, I am not 5 years old and I do work 40 hours / week too. I should have some input and there needs to be more transparency in how she runs the family finances.

  I'm curious, though, that since it sounds like your husband is still fully indoctrinated in the 'truth,' how have your exchanges been lately? I ask this because I am frankly growing tired of it and find that my wife will have to see for herself the truth about the 'truth.' I guess my goal now is to ensure that I am fully convinced that this religion is not the 'truth' and that there is something better out there. I still struggle with that from time to time.

  Heaven: I use that verse (1 Thessalonians 5:21) often when my wife asks why I spend so much time researching the witnesses. After nearly six years of hearing their propoganda and nearly buying into it, I figured I better check 'the other side' to ensure that this religion is truly right. Actually, my research originally began with what the Bible really teaches as opposed to the Watchtower, but then it went into WT doctrines specifically.

  I agree that there are definitely pedophiles amongst the witnesses. I also know that pedophiles exist in churches and other organizations. Going back to my wife's point as to why I seem to make a big deal over this as opposed to what I might do if she were in another denomination of Christianity. It is because I feel that if something like this happened in a Baptist or Methodist church, the member could leave and not feel like his or her relationship to God has been severed. Baptist, Methodist, Holiness churches don't go around saying that they alone have the truth and everyone else is false.

  Georgiegirl: Thanks, that may be helpful. A part of me feels like I should just leave it alone and let her believe it is the truth. I guess as long as it does not affect us, let her have her beliefs. Then again, when I see how torn she is regarding the things she wants to do (celebrate holidays and give our daughter birthday parties) versus what the WT tells her she can do (doing those things displeases God), I can't help but to think that she needs to break free somehow.

  OTWO: Yes, you are so right. I recall reading on Barbara's weblog that the Watchtower did change its policy. The Proclaimers book would appear to be another attempt for them inoculate their rank and file.
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  garyneal

  greenie: I agree that the Watchtower should not try so hard to cover up so much stuff. It only makes them look worse. Better to be open, truthful, and honest about their issues and attempt to correct them than to cover it up and white wash their graves. I would have a great deal more respect for the religion if it would more openly admit their errors and try to correct them. Their Proclaimers book appears to be taking some steps in this direction but they should just tell everything about their past. There are people who will still believe no matter what.
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  Heaven

  Actually, my research originally began with what the Bible really teaches as opposed to the Watchtower, but then it went into WT doctrines specifically.

  I like 1 Thessalonians 5:21. Proof is not an easy thing to produce in my experience. I'm still waiting for a lot of proof.

  I am glad you did your research. I hope your wife does some day too. As you have seen, the Watchtower uses the Bible for their own purposes... just like everyone else. Processor's "Our Boredom Ministry" thread shows how you can take a scripture and use it to fit any scenario -- http://svhelden.kilu.de/pdf/obm_04_2008.pdf.

  I hear what you're saying about the WTS admitting their errors however, they can never do this. Here's why... they are God's chosen. Only God's chosen are going to survive into God's Kingdom. To admit error means God is in error because God directsinspires directs them. For the WTS to be in error means everything else they've spewed must also be questioned. This leads to more discovery of untruths. And their house of cards starts to fall. This is what happens when you set yourself up to be perfect when in actual fact you're just like the rest of us. For the WTS/JWs to be like any other religion means they aren't God's chosen and that they have become just like Christendom -- a tool of Satan. They MUST be different from all other religions. This is how they do it. You're doomed if you're not a JW. This will never change. Is this in the Bible? No. But as you know, a lot of what they teach is not... with some in direct contradiction.