Are there ANY Bible prophecies that indisputably came true?
by nicolaou 81 Replies latest watchtower bible
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EverAStudent
Leolaia wrote: “EverAStudent .....First of all, rest assured that I have no intention of ‘converting’ you away from your faith;”
Ummmmm, not really worried about that, but thanks, good to know…
Leolaia wrote: “I have already said in a prior post that you are perfectly entitled to believe what you believe,”
Agreed, it is wrong for one human to require from another human: faith in God, faith in humanism, or a lack of faith altogether (atheism).
Leolaia wrote: “and I'm not really expecting to convince you, or anyone else, of my position.”
Yet, those expectations do not really keep us from trying, else no one would bother posting anything of substance on this forum.
I simply appreciate understanding what your “faith” position is. Doubtless I will have misstated or misperceived your beliefs here, but this is what I have come to feel it must be based on your comments so far: you were once an adherent to WTS doctrine (not sure how strongly), you left that faith and doctrine; presently you believe there is no supernatural God, Scripture is not revelation from the supernatural God/Creator but is the result of writings by persons who either perceived themselves to have had revelations or they wrote intentional fiction and called it “inspired.”
As I said, my perceptions are likely wrong (I am neither a mind-reader or a prophet), so please correct if you wish.
A question if you don’t mind: Do you pity those who have a faith in the supernatural and desire to educate/warn them, or disdain them and desire them to go away, or are completely ambivalent and desire to talk with them principally for the entertainment value? Other?
Leolaia wrote: “Did the rabbis who invented stories about the patriarchs through biblical interpretation believe that they were themselves crafty ‘liars’, or did they instead think that they were discovering hidden truths in the Torah through a particular methodology of interpretation?”
To my way of thinking (welcome to the madness) what the rabbis “invented” fall into multiple classifications. Some invented parables (unfortunately, sometimes using the names of actual patriarchs to preclude having to invent an entire new background setting for the story) that were obviously fiction for the point of delivering a spiritual lesson--therefore no claim of historical accuracy is made so it is not a lie. Some referred to oral accounts of alleged historical events not recorded in Scripture--so long as they are couched in such terms as “oral tradition” then I would not consider it to be a lie. Some recounted the actual stories of what they considered to be oral histories assuming them to be true--so long as the disclaimer is stated or implied (that this is oral history and not a scriptural retelling) then it seems there is no attempt to deceive. If a rabbi invents a story of fiction (from his own mind) and claims it to be an historical event then no matter his intent or motive it is a lie and deception.
The problem with oral tradition is that they may or may not be true stories, or, they may have errors in them. So long as they are tagged by implication or overt statement as oral tradition, it is obvious to any reader/listener that the story may be fiction.
To bring this to the time of the evangelists, if they invented the story of Mary and Joseph going into Egypt just to make Jesus’ life match an Old Testament passage, then that is a dirty/filthy lie. Why call it a lie and not a parable? Parables use fictional stories to illustrate truths. Claiming that Joseph and Mary went to Egypt, if they did not, to show how Jesus fulfilled a Messianic prophecy is deception, not an illustration. It is inventing “facts” to make Jesus a more plausible Messiah because God was incapable of causing sufficiently convincing real events to happen on His own.
Yes, inventing fictional stories and then calling them historical events to “bolster faith” is a terrible lie. If Psychotic Parrot can demonstrate such a fiction accompanied by concrete evidence, that would be one of the “proofs” he seeks to unseat the veracity of the Scriptures.
Leolaia wrote: “I already said in my last post that the evangelists regarded the OT as a reliable witness of Jesus Christ; the author of John was explicit on this. I see no reason to think that they would have hesitated in appealing to this source for information about the life of Jesus — a source that was regarded as more reliable than human witnesses.”
I agree. But it is a huge stretch between linking events in Jesus’ life to OT passages and inventing events into the life of Jesus so as to have something to link to.
Leolaia wrote: “Why do you think drawing on the OT was intended to entertain’?”
The intended message in what I wrote has been misunderstood.
Leolaia wrote: “In light of all this, it is hardly inescapable that literary invention necessarily involves deceit. “
The specific string of logic you used assumed that “literary invention” resulted from “hearing or remembering things that never happened” which got incorporated into the evangelist’s gospel account as if it did happen. Presumably the evangelist was more concerned with telling a coherent narrative via a meaningful sequence of events than with whether the events were historically valid. Ordinarily I would agree that such careless “errors” are not necessarily deceit.
However, since Paul claimed in his letters that the major events of Jesus’ life were true (e.g. born of a virgin, lived without sin, died as a sacrifice, rose from the dead) and that any inaccuracy in these points would destroy the entire Christian faith, then such an “error” by one of the evangelists becomes willful deception. It would be willful deception by not only the evangelists who originated the error, but also by Paul who repeated the faith-crushing “error.” Each of the eyewitnesses would have known the true story making it inexcusable to have repeated the same essential episodes anyway. That is willful deception, is it not?
Worse, Paul claimed that no human taught him the gospel story and that Jesus took him into heaven to teach him all these things while he was sequestered in Damascus for three years. Therefore, if any of the four evangelists got something wrong, Paul would have known it. Instead, Paul made the same gospel claims as the four evangelists. Therefore, they are all liars to the last man, or, they are all correct in their accounts, at least in the primary events listed above.
Leoleaia wrote: “This is neatly accounted by the fact that the author of Matthew drew on traditions pertaining to Moses and Luke drew on traditions pertaining to Samuel. But if we adopt EverAStudent's position, this patterning has no obvious explanation since the historical Jesus would have fulfilled both sets of "prophecies" and one would need to explain why one author carefully omitted all mention of anything that is paralleled the OT intertexts and traditions used by the author of the other gospel. “
Seems you have answered your own objection. Nonetheless…
You said, “the author of Matthew drew on traditions pertaining to Moses,” meaning your foundational assumption is that the author of Matthew invented the episodes of Jesus’ life that would fulfill the Scriptures that depict the life of Moses. It should be equally apparent that the author of Matthew need not have invented fictionalized accounts but could have emphasized the actual episodes in Jesus’ life that mirrored those of Moses’. Your treatment of Luke demonstrates the same foundational assumption and bias that the life episodes were invented to match favored existing sacred texts.
You then said, “one would need to explain why one author carefully omitted all mention of anything that is paralleled [by] the OT” external co-texts/intertexts that were favored by the other three writers. While this is a common complaint toward the evangelists, it lacks substance.
The complaint assumes that each evangelist should have written a word-for-word carbon copy of the other evangelists’ works. Then we would have four utterly consistent, but identical gospels. Of course, the reason that each evangelist wrote their own account, often borrowing words/phrases/sentences/paragraphs from the others, was precisely for the purpose of emphasizing different episodes, details, and theology that was more dear to them and more meaningful for their own targeted audiences.
It is entirely without merit to insist that all eyewitnesses of an event limit themselves to a single collaborative account or to a single intended audience or to one purpose for the account. That is not human nature or the way reality works. The multiple accounts give us vastly different insights into both the life of Christ, but also into the thoughts of the evangelists. Far from such multiple accounts being an implication of fiction they mirror real people operating in the real world with personal integrity.
Blessings.
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Larsinger58
The "70 weeks" prohpecy prophesied that the messiah would appear at the end of 483 years (69 weeks) after the "word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem.
The messiah appeared in 29 CE so that prophecy began in 455 BCE. So do we have any evidence that the 1st of Cyrus began in 455 BCE?
Yes. An eclipse occurred when Xerxes invaded Greece in the spring. When revisions were made this original year was moved back to 481 and then 480 BCE. But there are no eclipses in the early spring that year. In 424 BCE the eclipse is right there occurring on March 21st which is the early spring.
We can use this ecipse thus to date the year of Xerxes invasion, the original year. That means the Battle of Marathon was fought 10 years eralier in 434 BCE. Darius I died at Marathon. His history was later distorted. But presuming that is correct, then we can link the death of Darius in his sixth year in 434 BCE with the completion of the temple the same year. Ezra 6:14,15 clearly shows that the temple was completed in the sixth year of Darius by King Artaxerxes, meaning this was the accession year of Artaxerxes in year six of Darius. Darius son was known more famously as "Xerxes" but the Persian kings used double names and the double name for Xerxes was Artaxerxes, which is why the Bible is calling him "Artaxerxes" the successor to Darius I in his sixth year.
Based on the above, the temple would have been completed that following year in the last month of the year Adar, in 433 BCE after 22 years of work. That means the work began and the 1st of Cyrus is clearly dated by this ecilpse scenario to 455 BCE.
Se we have direct astronomical confirmation for the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE from this eclipse and others.
But the Bible also confirms the 1st of Cyrus would begin in 455 BCE. It is the beginning of 50 jubilees that lead to the final jubilee in modern times when the Jews would regain their homeland as the Bible promised. That final return would fulfill the 50th jubilee from 455 BCE, the return from Babylon. How do we calculate?
Easy! If 455 BCE to 36 CE is 70 weeks, 490 years, representing 10 jubilees, then we need only count down to the 50th jubilee, that is add another four period of 490 years from 36 CE.
4 x 490 = 1960
1960 + 33 CE is 1996.
So the FIFTIETH JUBILEE, which is 49 years is the last 49 years ending in 1996. Remember 49 years is a jubilee period. The jubilee is celebrated the 1st year of each 49 years, but it is also the 50th following the previous 39.
So over a period of 2420 years, which is five periods of 490 years beginning in 455 BCE, the final JUBILEE, the 50th jubilee from 455 BCE, ending in 1996 begins in 1947! Of course, November 30, 1947 is when the Partition Agreement went into effect to restore the Jews to their homeland. Thus you have another prophecy being fulfilled in modern times that aligns with the true chronology of ancient times.
1947, the final restoration, is thus linked to 455 BCE and the baptism of Christ in 29 BCE. It is quite precise.
But perhaps the biggest fulfillment is Zech 13:8 which speaks of the two-thirds of the Jews who would die in the "great tribulation" which is the holocaust, just before their restoration.
Here's that prophecy showing two-thirds passing through the fire and remnant of 1/3 coming out of exile:
8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”
Everyone knows, of course, the basic numbers of the Jews killed during the Holocaust was 6 million out of 9 million. So that was fulfilled. But immediately after this tribultion, we find the restoration of the Jews to their homeland, which happened in 1947. So another definite Bible fulfillment.
Country Estimated Pre-War Jewish population Estimated Jewish population annihilated Percent killed Poland 3,300,000 3,000,000 90 Baltic countries 253,000 228,000 90 Germany & Austria 240,000 210,000 90 Bohemia & Moravia 90,000 80,000 89 Slovakia 90,000 75,000 83 Greece 70,000 54,000 77 Netherlands 140,000 105,000 75 Hungary 650,000 450,000 70 Byelorussian SSR 375,000 245,000 65 Ukrainian SSR 1,500,000 900,000 60 Belgium 65,000 40,000 60 Yugoslavia 43,000 26,000 60 Romania 600,000 300,000 50 Norway 2,173 890 41 France 350,000 90,000 26 Bulgaria 64,000 14,000 22 Italy 40,000 8,000 20 Luxembourg 5,000 1,000 20 Russian SFSR 975,000 107,000 11 Denmark 8,000 52 <1 Finland 2,000 22 1 Total
8,861,800 5,933,900 67%
Two-thirds is 66.666%
So the Bible's prophecies are fulfilled and fulfilled precisely.
Now after this two thirds of the nation pass through the fire, then God would restore them and bless them and bring them out of exile. The Holocaust ended in the Spring of 1945. They Jews had their own land again and came out of exile on November 30, 1947. Now they are the State of Israel, a major world power! Just as the Bible said.
This gives us confidence for what to expect next, which is:
1. The destruction of Babylon the Great and the WTS and Christendom when the UN turns on the Illuminati-based secret societies now running the UN, namely the CFR, the Federal Reserve, etc, which are linked to secret societies like "Skull and Bones" which link back to Satanism and the ancient Mysteries of Babylon.
LS
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Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.
There are some loopy bastards on this forum, but what is it about 70 weeks and the date 607 that seems to bring out 'the best' of them?
Cheeses. Dating with the dateless.
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lovelylil2
Wow, lots of good information. Here is my two cents. I am not a biblical "scholar" like Leolaia so I will keep it short.
I am in agreement with Leolaia. To say the NT writers were complete liars is going a little too far. Like she said you need to understand the literary style of people in that day.
As far as Psalm 22 it is NOT a prophecy in the sense that it states "this is about the Messiah". It is a lament of David when he felt he was being oppressed by those he did not provoke and was underserving of such treatment. To be technical, Psalms are mostly prayers and this one is a prayer of David under unprovoked attack.
However, because of the similarities of how David was oppressed when underserving of such harsh treatement and the oppression and attack on the Christ, the NT writers applied these verses to Jesus. Both Matthew and Mark alluded to this prayer in their accounts of Christ's passion. (Mt 27:35,39,43; Jn 19:23-24:28)
Again this is not a direct prohecy about Jesus. However, some would argue that since David was under inspiration of Holy Spirit, his prayer did forshadow the much later events of the oppression of Jesus. As many Christians beleive the stories and writings in the OT ALL forshadow and point to Jesus Christ and that this was how God intended it, even if those writing them did not realize it at the time. So in a way it is an "indirect" prophecy about Christ.
Again, to say they are complete liars or fabricators would not be the correct view. Peace, Lilly
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EverAStudent
Hi Lilly. Thanks for stating your opinion. In our modern-day Western mindset, no, we do not read the things written by David and say, "Hey, that's a prophecy!" But we are not Jews from the 1st century. Jesus did read those same passages and think they were prophecy. Look what Jesus says about the Psalms:
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. "You are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24:44-48)
And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken ! "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures . (Luke 24:25-27 )
It is dangerous to approach Scripture and say, "Well, since I would not write it that way, then it must be wrong." As you stated, Lilly, God inspired David to write things that never applied to him but only applied to the Messiah, and Jesus taught us these were prophecies about Him.
And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? "David himself said in the Holy Spirit , 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."' "David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him. (Mark 12:35-37)
And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said , 'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE, AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS? 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' (Acts 4:24-26)
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lovelylil2
EVerAStudent,
What I said was this;
While some will say that Psalm 22 is not a direct prophecy as this was written about David and is not "technically" a book of prophecy, (like Isaiah, Ezekiel etc) but a book of prayers, it could still be argued by some (me included) that David wrote this under inspiration as an event that would later forshadow events that applied to Jesus Christ, our Messiah. That is why the Apostle's applied these verses to Jesus during the accounts of his passion.
Sorry about the misunderstanding. As an avid student of the bible I do recognize that many of the writings in the hebrew Scriptures, even those not directly claiming to be prophetic, were in fact prophetic after all. God is all his wisdom knew what he was doing. Peace, Lilly
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EverAStudent
Hi Lilly, apparently we are in hot agreement. Sorry that I misunderstood your post.
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Knowsnothing
What about that Babylon would cease to exist? Did it come true? Could that prophecy be misconstrued as well?