Rebuttal to Amnesian's Post - Preface

by Amazing 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    REBUTTAL TO AMNESIAN'S POST – PREFACE

    Intro: I am making a preface to kick-off my Rebuttal so that when some of you read this, you can have a quick review of where I am coming from, and my views, and the tone I am trying to set. Then if you wish to expend the time, my full rebuttal will be posted in parts over the next few days (except News Years Day). I am doing this to facilitate shorter reading cycles, and so that I can take the time necessary to present a thoughtful and objective rebuttal.

    Point on Communication: As much as I have talked about communication issues with respect to the single dimensional written word vs multi-dimensional face to face communication, I need to take as much care with my own words and expressions. I believe it is only fair to Amnesian and everyone commenting for me to apply to myself what I hope for in others.

    A good point needs to be highlighted regarding communication issues with respect to the single dimensional written word vs multi-dimensional face to face communication. Experts say that about 80% to 90% of what gets communicated is the non-oral body language, tone of voice, mannerisms, etc. When we are reduced to the written word alone, coupled with not personally knowing one another, we are unconsciously forced to overlay "our own" emotional state of mind onto what the author writes. It takes very skilled writing to reduce this reaction in the reader’s mind, and it takes a very conscious effort on the part of the reader to resist this and read the material in various tones to try and extract the most likely emotion being communicated. If we are feeling passionate, as Amnesian strongly admitted, then this task becomes extremely difficult. In this, I likely failed when reading Amnesian’s passionate response, as she may have in reading my posts.

    My Current Views of Life: In the over 9 years since I left the JWs I have gone through a continuing series of discoveries, learning curves, and personal changes. I believe that, with few exceptions, anyone who has been a JW for more than 20 years is not going to walk away with an instantaneous personality overhaul. Realistically, it just takes time, and that time interval from day one of being an ex-JW until a person has made a full recovery and developed in new ways, is different for everyone. Many variables, past experiences, new experiences, availability of information, and emotional readiness all play out differently for each person. In this, I believe, none of us are in a position to judge another.

    I am still discovering new things about myself and my views that hold shades of JW-ism, and this requires yet another set of adjustments and reflections in the long progression of growth. But, I believe that my current status, while still adjusting, is far removed from the JW world I left in May of 1992. I find that I am far less judgmental and far more accepting of differences in others. I have far more respect for the views of others, and I have more self-respect and value the right to hold and express my own views than before. In the words of the Virginia Slim commercial, “I have come a long way baby!” – And in my own words, “Be patient, I have a ways to go sweetie!

    My Current Religious and Social Views: I started to make changes while I was still a JW, in part because I never fully accepted some of their rigid policies, and in part because life was forcing me to see things differently.

    I trained my daughters to stand on their own, be independent, and any relationships they may enter into, to be done as complete equals. I believe in the fundamentals of human rights, and especially as these apply to women’s rights. Our society in general has come a long way, and it has more improvement to make. My daughter who posts here as “Amazing Progeny” let me know today that any woman on JWD who tries to paint me into a “male chauvinist” corner will get a butt kicking from her, because she says that they just do not know me. I did not solicit that from her --- it was her own thoughts she volunteered.

    I no longer believe in the style of male dominated church government that has been part of many religions. If one accepts Christianity, then the Bible does not hold men above women, for the standards of Eldership (Presbyter) were for women and men to apply and serve each on their own. Not from some official church appointment, but through Christian living and experience. The Apostle Paul made it damn clear that there were to be NO distinctions between men and women. Christian maturity and service are not to be parsed out by human divination and placed on organization charts, but are resident within the hearts and minds of the individual. Clearly, the Jehovah’s Witness religion is in total violation of Christianity with its Elder arrangement, their egotistic male domination, and the senseless control of women.

    I do not belong to any religion because I cannot accept such “organizationalizing” of spiritual things. I am not sure I can accept much of the Bible as the Word of God, and this creates serious consternation because if I do not accept one part, how can I accept any part. While I believe in God (or some kind of higher intelligent power) I am not sure I really know God anymore, or at least I am unsure of and confused about HER or HIS or IT’s purposes for, and relationship with, humans. So my search and discovery and learning and adjusting continue – and as this takes place, I find a little JW-ism here and there that requires purging out of my system. I admit it and understand it. But, again, I have come a long way baby!

    What does all this have to do with Amnesian's post?: In summary, I opened the whole debate with ”Questioning” JW Elder culpability and especially with respect to those JW Elders no longer accepting the Watch Tower religion, but who remain for whatever purpose. I did not open with any agenda or stand on the issue. Rather, I was seeking objective discussion, and expected some debate. What I saw when I tried to find some balance and fair-mindedness for ”some” JW Elders who remain in their organization, the discussion went off into an attack on me – as though I still accept JW views, and as though I am some kind of :macho chauvinist pig” who is little more than a bumbling “Barney Fife” – as Amnesian phrased it. This is clearly not an objective presentation on her part, but one of “passion” as she put it, and mingled with sarcasm and ad hominem par excellence. I was being treated as thought I was trying to defend the indefensible, and when I said something that Amnesian found agreement with, that is the overwhelming and wrongful power JW Elders hold, she reacted by calling me a “Smooth” talker. This style on her part is much like a phrase lawyers use when I am involved in legal issues – ‘anything you say, can and will be twisted against you in a court of law.’

    My reaction, unfortunately, did not remain objective, but I quickly found myself reacting with passion, and thinking of Amnesian as a kind of female version of Goody-Two-Shoe Gomer Pile – you know, the feigned innocence coping with the idiotic sergeant . I was in retaliation mode, a tit-for-tat confrontation. When I realized what was going on with me, and how I ended up calling Tina a bold faced liar, I knew that I had been maneuvered into a lost battle – a battle that shifted far from the front I was prepared to discuss, to a point where I was blind-sided from behind and ill prepared to handle; defending the indefensible.

    So I am making one major point crystal clear: I DO NOT IN ANY WAY SUPPORT OR DEFEND JW ELDERS WHO REMAIN IN THE WATCH TOWER RELIGION FOR THE PURPOSES OF PERSONAL POWER OR PRESTEIGE, OR THOSE WHO ARE PLAIN COWARDS, AND WILL NOT LEAVE BECAUSE IT IS NOT COMFORTABLE. This is indefensible, and I never in any of my posts tried to defend that, those Amnesian’s characterizations in her post would have one think otherwise. I DO, HOWEVER, FIND THAT I CANNOT JUDGE “””SOME””” JW ELDERS WHO REMAIN, WHETHER THIS IS FOR SOME TEMPORARY ALTRUISTIC PURPOSE, OR BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT FULLY SEEN THE FOREST FOR THE TREES, AND FEEL COMPELLED TO TRY AND PROMOTE BALANCE, STABILITY, AND EVEN REFORM. Even ray Franz felt compelled in his book, Crisis of Conscience to accept and recognize that some who remain are Christian, not because of the organization, but in spite of it. I just cannot for the life of me feel that I must demand that these men, or their wives, must leave on the terms that I or Amnesian or other might set. Each person must be free to reach this decision and make a plan that works for them.

    Amnesian’s post to Mulan a week before mine, said exactly what I was thinking, and she argued virtually the opposite of what she argued with me. Further, when I made my first Rebuttal to her, called ”Amnesian’s Amnesia” I quoted her post to Mulan verbatim. Yet, even with a short rebuttal as that one, she did not respond. Why? And now, some have felt that I should rebut her 12 page post point for point, as though earlier efforts were ‘blowing her off.’ It was she who blew me off with no response, and in particular when I confronted her with her own contradictory words. Nevertheless, I have agreed to rebut her 12 page post in addition to the “Amnesian Amnesia’s” post, and will wait to see if she has any response.

    Eventually, I realized that Amnesian’s 12 page post was not so much about me, because she does not know me, but rather, was about something inside her that emerged when my initial post appeared. She needed to vent. And I became the”Elder in Effigy” that she could burn. It was understandable and convenient. Nevertheless, she did post some good points, and I believe she is most sincere. Now that I have had time to reflect and listen to some wisdom from various people, both on and off board, my task now is to treat her post with the respect and equality it deserves, and make a full reply. Not everything she said requires rebuttal, because she and I agree on a number of points. But, I will reply to “everything she said” so as to make sure nothing gets overlooked, lest I risk being accused by some of ‘blowing her off’ on some point.

    Final Note to Amnesian: I am truly trying hard here to be respectful, and treat you as you want, and at the same time not toss my own equally valid views down the drain. If I have said anything in this Preface that has triggered some ‘passion’ in you, where you feel that I am being some kind of “Barney Fife” male Chauvinist, then please understand that my use of such phrases are not intended that way – and if you can kindly point them out as I go along, I will edit and rephrase things until I get it right. I will make apologies if necessary. Is that fair enough? I hope so.

    Likely, I will not post anything on this issue tomorrow, given that it’s New Years Day. I will try to continue with the body of the rebuttal by Wednesday ... at least the first installment. Thanks in advance for a fair hearing. – Amazing

  • outonalimb
    outonalimb

    Amazing-
    I have been following the threads between you and Amnesian, why do you take things so personally? Please just reply to the post. I don't
    want to know your lifes story. I am afraid your ego has gotten the best of you, again. Just an observation.

    mn

    it is by reason alone that we can distinguish truth from falsehood....

  • Xena
    Xena

    I don't know outonalimb...he sounds pretty reasonable to me...

    edited to add that I haven't read all the threads that relate to this...sooo...that is just my opinion of this thread...

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Outonalimb: How do you feel that I am taking things so personally? Normally, I don't. In this situation, I was personally ttacked, and in my "Preface" above, I acknowledge near the end that I need not take it that way. I am human, and sometimes things affect me personally.

    How has my ego gotten to me? Amnesian posts 12 looooooonnnnnngggggg pages, and everyone in sight eats it up like candy. I post a couple of pages and I am accused of giving my life's story, engaging in egocentricity. Yet not one person has made one single point that demonstrates their claims. I challenge you to demonstrate such a claim. I find it all curious. This is just one of those judgment calls where I have decided to proceed - albeit, with caution.

    Lastly, I have recieved advice from differnt views, all of which I respect, that encourage me to say nothing, or make amends, or make a full blown reply. I tried the former first. It did not achieve any results. So, based on what Julie and Outnfree stated, I changed course to see if that would make a difference. Unless Amnesian, or Tina, or Julie or others ask me to forget it, and move on, then I will do as I promised them, and follow through. - Amazing

  • Tina
    Tina

    And the ego massaging goes on. Listen Amazing a character assessment by a daughter isnt exactly unbiased lol. You wanna bring her on? Oh pulease lol. I wont be responsible for the new asshole she gets.

    bwaaa couldn't help this,had to show my hubby what you wrote about yer daughter lolololol....he couldn't stop laffin..asked me what world ya come from lolol......

    Tina shakin in her JWD gogo boots-NOT! lololol

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Tina: You are good a missing the point. But, then again, a bold faced liar like yourself, what else can I expect. You have yet to refute your lies. Figures.

    And, oh, like your husband's opinion matters, as though he is somekind of unbiased authority.

    FYI: The point of mentioning my daughter is how she feels about how she as a woman was raised. That is all I intended ... but coming from a person who loves to lie like yourself, then what else could I have expected. - Amazing

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Amazing,

    :Hi Outonalimb: How do you feel that I am taking things so personally? Normally, I don't.

    I think you do but I suppose we all like to think we are objective and emotions/feelings aren't involved when we participate in serious debate.

    :In this situation, I was personally ttacked, and in my "Preface" above, I acknowledge near the end that I need not take it that way. I am human, and sometimes things affect me personally.

    Hey, we all do *sometimes*. You have often mentioned this "attack" Amazing, in all your promises of rebuttal and offers to forgive and forget. I wish you would just cut to the chase and provide proof of this and the other allegations you make. This seems to be the theme you are staying with in describing these "attacks":

    :to a point where I was blind-sided from behind and ill prepared to handle

    "Blind-sided"!!! I love it!! You've gotten some good mileage out of it too. Do you feel "blind-sided" because Amnesian started a new thread to collectively present her rebuttal to you from several threads? I can think of another person who is fond of starting threads instead of rebutting existing ones. Besides, she merely addresses things previously said by you, not unheard of concepts and issues you know nothing of. Quit whining about being "blind-sided" by these attacks and stand up and give your rebuttal.

    :How has my ego gotten to me? Amnesian posts 12 looooooonnnnnngggggg pages, and everyone in sight eats it up like candy.

    Amazing, we all know that Amnesian's post was long. You have reiterated this point TO DEATH and it has lost much value in the pity you seem to seek. Ok, you have our sympathies that your rebuttal will be long. Can we get over this fact now? Please?

    As to eating it (Amnesian's post)up like candy, my but this is quite a statement to make about those who saw the merits of it, as you seemingly did not.

    :I post a couple of pages and I am accused of giving my life's story, engaging in egocentricity.

    Well Amazing, Amnesian addressed much of what you had said in previous posts, bottom line (again)is she merely rebutted what you had said in the past. You have followed up with a somewhat condenscending offer at reconciliation and now this little essay about you, your beliefs, your general philosophies and a warning that you will be making your rebuttal in several installments. All this effort could have resulted in a respectable rebuttal by now. *yawn*

    :Yet not one person has made one single point that demonstrates their claims. I challenge you to demonstrate such a claim. I find it all curious.

    I hope to have satisfied your curiousity here.

    :This is just one of those judgment calls where I have decided to proceed - albeit, with caution.

    Caution is always wise.

    :Lastly, I have recieved advice from differnt views, all of which I respect, that encourage me to say nothing, or make amends, or make a full blown reply. I tried the former first. It did not achieve any results.

    I can only wonder who it was that would be "kind" or "smart" enough to advise you to write a post assuring Tina and Amnesian they are Valued Posters here at JWD (like they need such a reassurance from you, and you presume to speak for all) and then you completely disregard Amnesian's long, well-thought-out, heart-felt post. How's that for having your words valued? To make it worse, you intially responded in her thread that you would provide a thorough reply and then you toss out some strong allegations, repeat them often and we've yet to see evidence of this. You need to get better advice my friend.

    :So, based on what Julie and Outnfree stated, I changed course to see if that would make a difference. Unless Amnesian, or Tina, or Julie or others ask me to forget it, and move on, then I will do as I promised them, and follow through.

    I think curiousity is way to high for this Epic Rebuttal you have been teasing us with for ages. Come now Amazing, in another thread didn't you say you had practically finished anyway? Just a little fine tuning to do and it's complete? Why all this last-chance-for-me-to-not-do-this stuff? What are saying, "One word from ay of you and I will spare Amnesian my rebuttal out of mercy" or what?

    I say quit with all the fan-fare and just get to it. We don't want to know all about what you are *going* to do, we'll have a look when you *do* it. So what say you we just get on with it?

    Julie

  • Tina
    Tina

    and you missed my point amazing,
    I don't need to bring family members into my debates. See in my case,My family is quite confident in my talents and abilties to defend whatever stance I take...you...on the other you, hand continue to show this is an ego issue.
    Im done with you for the time being. You and frenchy have some honest soul searching to do. may I suggest the 12 steps?
    An excellent beginning in personal accountabilty and responsibiltiy.T

    Like I said Frenchy,whatever helps you sleep at night. What you keep saying is diametrically opposed to most of the womens reality a la WTS. T
    Amzing- Ph -pulease stay on your Jw ex-elder pity pot here,you made no rebuttals to counter. Nothing but excuses and blah blah blah blah. Sorry rigorous honesty isnt in your repertoire.
    You can waffle weasel etc all you want,your words do not define mine and others reality.or didnt you read the other posts oh great and innocent one?
    Dont you dare call me on the fact that YOU brought a family member into this lol. Your dishonesty and defenses are stunningly stupid. I rest my case.

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • outonalimb
    outonalimb

    Amazing-
    I am not sure if you will see this, 'cause it looks like your leavin' our happy little place. And please, I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon, but you did respond to my post,and I shall reply.
    I do think you take this too personally, and way too serious. Your obvious defense of your character was enlightening. I don't care what you say, all men to a degree are chauvinist(?), it's our nature. Admit it, it's not so hard. You feel threatened by a woman, kinda' makes you feel insecure huh? It's rough buddy, it's a new world out there. Adapt or wither away. Your choice.
    Ego, what ego? We all got 'em, and they all bruise, some easy, some not. If it's wrong it's wrong, if it's right it's right. Simple huh.
    What I'm trying to say is I think Amnesian had some very valid points, and even though you say "you've come a long way" I don't think you have. Someone with your intelligence should see that. Learn, do some real growth, it feels good.

    mn

    it is by reason alone that we can distinguish truth from falsehood....

  • outonalimb

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