Trinity, 144,000, Earthly Paradise, and 1914 ...hmmm

by Butterflyleia85 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacedog
    peacedog

    Hi Butterfly, no offense taken. I'll try to respond to all your points:

    >> "Rev. 7:9"

    Ok, so you cited Rev 7:9 referring to the great crowd, but you offered nothing that puts this group on earth.

    Why should I believe the great crowd is not a heavenly group? Simply because the WT$ says so? I've already established that the WT$ is a LIAR ORGANIZATION, so I don't take their word for anything.

    I mentioned in a previous post that according to Revelation, the great crowd and the 144k are in the SAME PLACE: "before the throne". Also said to be "before the throne" are the angels, the seven spirits, the 24 elders, and the seven lamps - all heavenly things.

    Rev 19:1 says "After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven."

    Can you offer any scriptural proof that the great crowd is on earth? If not, why don't you believe the great crowd is in heaven where Revelation clearly puts it?

    >> "Luke 16:19-31 isn't literal."

    Why, because you say it isn't? Or because the WT$ says it isn't? Please...

    Regardless, I didn't say it was literal. All I said is that "the clearest teachings on hell in the Bible come from Jesus himself", and this is true.

    I also asked you to tell me why Jesus taught people using such terms, which you didn't do.

    >> "could all fit at the bosom of one man,..."

    The fact that Jesus used a figure of speech doesn't mean his entire sermon was figurative. That is so simplistic and childish. I probably used several figures of speech in this post. Does that mean that I intended for nothing I wrote to be taken literally??

    >> "The "rich man" represented the Pharisees..."

    Really? Because the WT$ says so? Nothing and I mean nothing in the passage suggests this. This is just the WT$ looking for some - any - explanation other than the OBVIOUS one.

    >> "And for one you are a putting words in peoples mouths JW do NOT beleive Son of God teaches his disciples Pagan concepts and doctrines!"

    I'm sorry Butterfly, but if they believe the Bible and they believe the WT$, then yes jws *DO* believe that Jesus taught his disciples using Pagan concepts and doctrines. They may not realize it, but they do.

    It's really not difficult to understand. According to the WT$ (and JWs), the concept of a fiery, burning hell where people are in torment is PAGAN and GOD-DISHONORING. Yet according to the Bible, Jesus taught his disciples using the concept of a fiery, burning hell where people are in torment.

    Note again:

    WT$: "the fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God"

    Jesus: "In hell, where he was in torment"

    Even if Jesus meant the words to be taken figuratively, that wouldn't change the fact that he used PAGAN, GOD-DISHONORING (according to the WT$) concepts when he taught. Personally, this just doesn't sit right with me so I believe it more likely that these concepts are NOT pagan and NOT God-dishonoring. If they were, as the WT$ (dogmatically) claims, then I believe Jesus WOULDN'T HAVE USED THEM IN TEACHING. He wouldn't have propagated them. He would have condemned or avoided them altogether. In actuality, he did neither. He used these concepts frequently in his teaching and he never condemned them.

    peace

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    ( Matt. 6:9-10 )

    9"This, then, is how you should pray:
    " 'Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    10 your kingdom come,
    your will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven.

    ( Rev. 5:9-10 )

    9And they sang a new song:
    "You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased men for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth."

    Rev. 7:9

    9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

    ( Rev. 14:3 )

    3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

    Matt. 5:5

    5Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.

    Ps. 37:11

    11 But the meek will inherit the land
    and enjoy great peace.

    Is. 45:18

    18 For this is what the LORD says—
    he who created the heavens,
    he is God;
    he who fashioned and made the earth,
    he founded it;
    he did not create it to be empty,
    but formed it to be inhabited

    he says:
    "I am the LORD,
    and there is no other.

    ( Rev. 21:3 )

    3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

    Rev. 20:14,15

    14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    I pasted all the scriptures so it would make it easier. (Scriptures I put in the post for peacedog)

    Looking forward to hearing from you!... Oh wow I just posted this as you posted peacedog!

  • peacedog
  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    Peacedog, I just read your post! You make a good point! It's how it's worded and again I gave lot of trust in WT at the time, like I said before I have no other spiritually means but through their teachings...

    If you could please can you give me all the scriptures you found where Jesus teaches Hell as a fire place of tormant, other then the one you mentioned?

    I not saying my beleif of hell being the grave has changed so much but the consept of hell and a torment place something I can see more clearer with your passage.

    I just had a look at your post Organization as a lier... yeah I agree with alot mentioned there... it's sad. And look now they have ppl like me running around not knowing what to believe anymore...

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi Butterfly,

    Thank you Chalam! That does help alot! I see how the trinity is taken and it's very interesting!

    Cool :) Glad to be of service.

    11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

    this is the Holy Spirit correct? God's holy spirit though... If it was a person it would talk, display a personality, right... I do understand now how the belief of trinity exist, though. Thanks again, Stephen.

    Yes, correct. In every sensible bible "Spirit" refers to the Holy Spirit as opposed to "spirit" which is just for any other spirit.

    PS is correct in saying the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Jesus Romans 8:9 Acts 16:7 Galatians 4:6

    As Jesus is God John 1:1 that is hardly surprising (unless you are a believing JW!)

    Yes, the Holy Spirit talks and displays personality. Here's three to get you started.

    Acts 13:2 (New International Version)

    2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

    Acts 5:3-4 (New International Version)

    3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

    Ephesians 4:30 (New International Version)

    30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • peacedog
    peacedog

    >> "If you could please can you give me all the scriptures you found where Jesus teaches Hell as a fire place of tormant"

    Butterfly, some verses where Jesus speaks of hell in terms the WT$ would consider pagan and God-dishonoring:

    If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. (Matt 18:8-9)

    The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:41-42)

    This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:49-50)

    But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell (Matt 5:22)

    "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. (Luke 16:22-25)

    "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' (Mark 9:42-48)

    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. (Luke 12:5)

    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt 25:41-42)

    Not all of them, but enough to make the point?

    peace

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    {One step at a time} well I understand trinity even more clearly... check this out - http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.html and hell http://christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-and-god.html?zoom_highlight=hell

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