by OnTheWayOut 57 Replies latest jw friends
happy guy.....you forgot to add the scottish contributions
after realising I had been duped I too made out some balance sheets
after some careful accounting I am happy to let you know you can add 3 buttons(various sizes) and some chewing gum.....(used)
ninja....always counting
But what would the money be used for? Is there something I'm missing that the money is being laundered and used for private purposes like cars, mansions, etc? Because a lot of non profits make billions a year. Making the money in and of itself is not the problem as much as how the money is being used.
SO okay so we know they bring in billions. But if they funneling the money Back into the organization I don't see how this makes them evil and deliberate liars.
Now, I'll admit, it's 8:15 am and I have yet to have my coffee so I am completely aware that I may be missing what point is trying to be made.
But for s**** and giggles, could someone help me understand how Making the money itself is a bad thing? OR is there evidence that the money is being used in a purpose not intended for this particular non profit?
of the just waking up after a really long night class
Happy Guy, let me adjust some of your conclusions.
The Watchtower Society is very similar to other religions in the respect that, they are asset rich but cash flow poor. Years ago, LoBello wrote about the Vatican having this same problem.
The Watchtower has a lot of real estate that they can sell off in Brooklyn. However, it should be overwhelmingly clear by now that Witnesses are closing their wallets and that the never ending cutbacks in magazines, literature and Bethelites are a big problem. The GB has been concerned about this lack of donations for years. In particular, the former printing of 4 magazines a month in millions of copies was a huge drain on cash. This is why they cut back to one Awake and reduced Watchtower printing by creating a private version that requires fewer copies.
Another example? Years ago, they told publishers they needed 50 million or so for new presses at Wallkill. Later, I heard a brother gushing over how Jehovah always provides because the sale of the Furman building paid for the new presses. The idiot didn't realize that "Jehovah's provision" meant that the publishers didn't come thru.
Let me add that many old time Bethelites can discreetly be among the most cynical people you'll ever meet.
metatron
The problem with the organization making a ton of money is the same with any organization that makes a ton of money. Organizations by nature are self-perpetuating. Organizations established to solve a problem have a vested interest in the problem NOT being solved because if there is no longer a problem, there is no longer a need for the organization. Organizations that begin to become profitable end up basing their goals and self-perception on those profits, regardless of what the original goals of the organization were.
One problem with the governing body is that there is a tendency to group them as one entity.
As Raymond Franz has revealed, there may just be more complexity to the situation. Some members may believe a great deal, others may have the kind of cheerful indifference that AllTimeJeff is speaking about. Essentially, the composition of the GB is potentially either homogeneous or heterogeneous. We really do not know. We do know that the body has been favoring more "organizational" men, but what does that really mean? It could possibly mean that some of the new members are potentially even more dedicated to the beliefs that we even realize, while older members less so.
Here is something else to think about. One major thing that is brought up over and over is the occasion that Ray Franz brings up regarding 1914 and sputnik (1957 I believe). This came at a time when the GB had gotten a new sense of power that it did not have before. It may just be that some members on the governing body wanted to see how far they could exercise that power. Essentially, they may have wanted to "play grown up" by doing things that only powerful watchtower leaders could do (i.e. Russell, Rutherford, Franz). In this way they would be more like leaders, rather than followers. When this fell through, they ended up being more like followers. The doctranal changes since that time only seek to alter fixed beliefs that were setup by the "powerful" WT leaders.
HAPPY GUY- Excellent research by you. Would you be able to provide some links for us to check out some of the statistics you researched ? You make some very good points. I think that this WT cult is evil and manipulative at the top that they have probably siphoned many $$$$ off into either offshore bank accounts or other hidden places. As Metatron said, yes perhaps most bethel members DON'T have big $$$$ themselves - but I would imagine the boys at the top - even the ones ABOVE the governing body who REALLY control the financial assets of the WT society have plenty of the mean green in safe investments funneled out to other companies to avoid detection.
I mean, think about it. This kind of financial siphoning goes on all the time in organized crime and the Mafia. They use respectable looking business organizations as a front to carry on their shady drug operations. If the leaders of the WT society are manipulative and evil - what would keep them from using the same type of tactics to hide where their money is going ? ( To WT corporate leaders and owners ? ) I don't mean the drug industry , of course not, but look at how other religious leaders funneled off big money , ie, Jim Bakker , to pad their own bank accounts to the loss of rank and file members of their churches ?
Why else would the WT society push so hard to encourage older, wealthy members to donate trust funds, estates , wills, inheritances, jewelry, automobiles, life insurance policies naming the WT society as a beneficiary and/or a trustee of an estate ? It's because they are in a money making venture. I bet we don't know and fully understand half of what goes on behind the scenes
Amazing information - bttt
I am surprised how many lean toward the GB just being evil lying manipulators. To add to my problem with that, we have Ray Franz' two books. If they were already evil liars back then, they must have stuck to the inner circle of the inner circle- back room meetings with just a couple of the GB members. They must have allowed people into the GB and slowly brought them around to the facts that Holy Spirit doesn't guide them. Ray Franz seemed to think that they genuinely believed their own crap.
I saw it at lower levels. More and more members are becoming like Ray Franz as they see inconsistencies, but enough go along with WTS no matter what. Go just one step above elder in a local cong. (C.O.) and their whole life is entangled in WTS supporting them. Plus they all had to pioneer to get their positions, so they did invest alot. So I can imagine many believing in the organization survival so much that they feel it is okay to lie to and manipulate the members for the sake of the corporation. They feel it is their God-given assignment to retain members and recruit more, and to get their money, they think it's for the everlasting good for people that WTS survives, more important that honesty or the care for the individual.
Much of what I read here has helped me consider this, but I am still stuck. The people in the upper room racking in billions of dollars live good, but they don't live good enough to justify doing what they do for money and power. I still have enough anecdotal evidence to keep alive my feeling that they believe they are serving Jehovah and they have learned from the OT and from each other that Jehovah allows such crap to take place.
The following quote from DNCall seems to explain it to me:
When the GB meets, they pray for the holy spirit to guide them. To the extent they are following the direction set forth in the spirit-inspired Scriptures, they can be said to be "spirit led." However, since they are also imperfect, there will be times when they fail to fully discern what the Scriptures are saying.
...So, when adjustments are made, even major ones and reversionary ones, it is credited to a more complete understanding of the Scriptures. This would include acknowledging, if only to themselves, that they were wrong in the past.
Perhaps for a different reason that DNCall posted, I saw something there. From having elders' meetings where we prayed for Holy Spirit, I get this. We prayed, then we assumed that our own opinion was "blessed." If Jehovah allowed us to continue feeling a certain way after praying, we felt that Jehovah gave us that feeling. I can imagine the GB members doing that. When a newbie or someone with a conscience speaks up about the manipulating and deceiving of members, they say "We prayed over it, Jehovah still allowed us to think it was a good idea."
The book, MISTAKES WERE MADE (BUT NOT BY ME) helped me understand how they could slowly lead themselves down a path that is so obviously wrong. http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0151010986
But it is obviously wrong only to people who are outside of that path. When you are on it, you justify every small step until you are way off the trail. Police will justify planting evidence to get the bad guys off the street. Soon, they are planting evidence to get "someone" off the street to satisfy their arrest reports and the media. They start feeling that the party "could have" done the crime and is typically a petty criminal anyway, so they are doing everyone a service. They start to justify interrogation techniques that have caused even innocent people to confess to crimes. They tell themselves that they only do this to guilty people and only guilty people would ever break down under such pressures.
OKay,
So we Think that it's POSSIBLE that the Watchtower Org is siphoning funds. I think it's Possible too.
Don't we need some evidence to prove this? I mean, heh, believe me, last year dealing with the end of ridiculous cookie sales for GS I was pretty darned sure someone was getting kickback and whatnot. So I understand it.
But before going out in the world and telling people that this is what's going on, I think I need evidence.
SO
What is the evidence that they are doing this?
Much of what I read here has helped me consider this, but I am still stuck. The people in the upper room racking in billions of dollars live good, but they don't live good enough to justify doing what they do for money and power. I still have enough anecdotal evidence to keep alive my feeling that they believe they are serving Jehovah and they have learned from the OT and from each other that Jehovah allows such crap to take place.
I wasn't talking about the governing body. That is not where the real power is. Yes, those senile octaganerians make doctrinal policy but the doctrinal policies do not control the assets. You have to look deeper. The real power is in whoever is behind the lawyers, and that is not the governing body. The lawyers make the policies that really matter. The controlling corporation, the one originally set up by Russel, has 50 shareholders. These are the only ones that can vote on matters that the lawyers then have to implement.
