AlanF et al, a little help please! Pronto Please!

by SixofNine 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I finally got that shepherding call. 1.5 years after not attending meetings, lol.

    I'm sorry guys, but I was just disgustingly forthright. I basically said that 1.5 years ago, I researched and came to the conclusion that the societies blood ban was wrong. I didn't get into the theology of it. I skipped ahead to present, and told them that I no longer believed that the Bible is of a supernatural source.

    The young punk elder (actually a nice guy, just doing an evil work) tried to press me if I wanted to DA myself. I said no. He questioned why; did I just want to keep some association? I skirted round that, said that it would just be hard on my family. They seemed to drop it, but I'm sure they will be talking about it in "the little room". Perhaps before they even get there.

    My question is: is there anything I can do legally to stave off any action on their part? I would love to not rock my family's social structure, and I would love to keep some contacts that are in.

    Dang it! I should have had a plan for this. Discretion would have been the better part of valor, but man, I sure like just being honest.

  • mikepence
    mikepence

    Honesty is liberating.

    They may disfellowship you. It is their club, their rules. Nothing you can do, really.

    As far as your family goes, don't you want your relationship with them based on honesty also?

    Best wishes to you.

    Mike Pence

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Hey Six:

    If u wanted to stay in u should've just been nice taken in the counsel and after they left go into your bathroom and quietly vomit.

    I've found the less amount of info ya give em, the better it is for u.

    ONE....

    bigboi

    "it's like the one thing we all have in common is that we
    got played by a cult and a bunch of old men and no matter what it will
    always be a part of us no matter how much we distance ourselves from it"
    ~ Ghostquote

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Six

    In legal repercussions from dfing, the elders are left holding the bag. So you could threaten any elders who visit you w legal action if you hear about dfing of you. I believe AF did something like this. Since you aren't making a big stink for them, i don't see why they would be that interested in outing you.

    SS' opinion

  • tyydyy
    tyydyy

    Hey Six,

    I feel for you man....They've come to my house twice and the urge to tell them exactly how you feel is overpowering. As time goes by, I worry less and less. Although, you know your family better than anyone else and how they would react to your disfellowshipping. I really don't think they have grounds to disfellowship you unless you are "preaching" your beliefs to the JWs. I made it a point to tell them that even though I have these serious "doubts" I refused to discuss them with any other JW. So far it has seemed to satisfy them. I hope someone can give you some actual advice. I just wanted to give a little support.

    TimB

  • msil
    msil

    6 o 9 and anyone else in a situation like this,

    Never admit anything!!!!! Any admission only has one outcome - the chop.

    If you want to stay associated for family reasons or any other go back and tell them you are just "spiritually weak". tell them they misunderstood what you said...be proactive about it and take the step.

    Don't play by their rules ever....you cannot win that way. you agree with them or you get chopped. The only way around that is through what I call "wounded-dog" mentality. You are "hurting, weak and need time to lick your wounds - and will try to do better". It is normally enough to satisfy their power lusts.

    If confronted deny everything with substance and swing it all back to you being "weak". I am scheduled for a visit in the next week - will follow this to a tee...has always worked up to now.

    The other mechanism is to use distraction of conversation and ask them to explain stuff you dont understand (which they dont either). when they dont know the answer ask them to try and research it. for instance issues like my 2 Peter 3:9 favorite one. I plan on that for my "shepherding" call...I actually love playing cat and mouse with these fools. They don't even realize who the mouse is...

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    During the period of the conversation about whether or not I wanted to formally with-draw, the one elder had a very transparent agenda, it seemed to me. However, he did not seem to press it when I made it clear that I saw no need to DA. It is a bit funny to see these guys come up against someone who has no interest in playing their game, who sees no holy spirit on their shoulders.

    I even took the opportunity (as these guys are kind of the new-improved cleanup elders for the old crappy elders the congo has had forever) to let them know that back when I believed that they were Godly appointed, the elders could and did make my depression 1000% worse. I openly chuckled a bit at the idea that I had ever believed elders to be appointed by holy spirit, lol.

    Mike, I've actually been brutally honest with my family. It was a calculated risk, and it has worked out very good. I'm one of the luckiest little apostates alive, so far, lol.

    SS, the personal responsibility of the individual elders is the angle I am looking at. Hopefully some who have worked this angle can advise me.

    Tim, thanks for the support.

    Bigboi, no shit. I gotta write ya. I'll be in NO later this week and weekend.

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Msil;

    You're right. When i first left 4 yrs ago, those bastids was comin to my job and everything. I was going be appointed an MS, when I stopped going to meetings. They had to send to the reccommendaton letter back. The method u use worked wonders for me. I just acted like I was real tired and worn out from all the shit that was goin on. In reality i just wanted to get out and explore my new relationship and for god's sake sleep late and watch football all day on Sundays!

    ONE....

    bigboi

    "it's like the one thing we all have in common is that we
    got played by a cult and a bunch of old men and no matter what it will
    always be a part of us no matter how much we distance ourselves from it"
    ~ Ghostquote

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Six,

    Email me. It's cold out, but we could do somethin. Only thing is My cousin,just got called up. I have to take him to Ft. Polk Saturday morning. It's only 3 hrs away though. Holla at me.

    ONE....

    bigboi

    "it's like the one thing we all have in common is that we
    got played by a cult and a bunch of old men and no matter what it will
    always be a part of us no matter how much we distance ourselves from it"
    ~ Ghostquote

  • teejay
    teejay

    Six,

    I've heard of people being df'd in absentia. Maybe that means little to you and you couldn't care less. On the other hand, maybe you do. To head that off, you might want to look at this. I forgot where I found it. Personalize as needed...
    ____________________________________________

    I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses or from Jehovah's Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons.

    First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serving any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeonholed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the real issues involved.

    Also, I have no problem with the ______ Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in publications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individual-ally or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and it's legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.

    The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multi-national, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations. Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostasy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.

    1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.

    2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.

    3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporation the ______ Company of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.

    5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.

    6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or organization of which I am not a member.

    7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.

    8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the judicial process.

    9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.

    10. During all meetings between the judicial committee and me I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watch-tower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.

    11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

    Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :

    12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.

    13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporation the ______ Company of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.

    15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.

    16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporation the ______ Company of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses or it's legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.

    18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.

    19. During the all meetings between the appeal committee and me I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee is likely to consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person I choose as a witness may also be a lawyer.

    20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

    21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.

    22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporation the ______ Company of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the ______ Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.

    24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the appeal committee upholds the disfellowshipping, I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I also understand that it is necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah's Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah's Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mort-gage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.

    25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privilege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, written or oral, public or private.

    I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding. I respectfully await your written response.

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