The New Agnostic Self (page 2)

AK - Jeff

Curious, and accurate question jwfacts.

I believe that I am most severely impacted, culturally and emotionally, by Christianity, being reared in the west, and currently surrounded by mostly Christian people. In the writings of Santayana, mentioned above by Drew Sagan [and thanx for that ref Drew], in his volume entitled 'Life of Reason', he says;

"What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak." [Volume 'Reason in Religion' page 5]

It just seems simpler to principly identify with the populace in general, whilst at the moment at least, satifying internal hungers from outside the general pervue. While I agree in general principle with the words of Jesus on some subjects and object lessons, the peaceful harmony of Zen and the symbolisms of eastern culture seem to more fit my soul at the moment. And while I feel no need to proselitize my philosophy or opinion on life to those around me, it seems more suitable to 'fit' than to 'fight' the general mold of my environment. Those who come to know me well will soon enough come to grasp that my viewpoint is 'unusual', but hopefully at that point the prejudice is abated toward those views a bit. I believe religion [or even reference to it] to be a sensitive subject to many. I also view all religion as pragmatism of sorts. And this pragmatism is relatively consistent thoughout religious thought.

You are right though - as the cloak falls over time, I might indeed revise the 'label'.

Jeff

What-A-Coincidence

don't relate to anything, be free of labels

poppers

From Satanus: Cool. I also agree w some things attributed to jesus. Some people have thought that i was buddhist, based on some of my views. Truth is i don't follow, ANYTHING. "If you see buddha on the road, kill him"as they say.
Anyhoo, agnostic, the idea of not knowing is always a good place from which to embark. I also agree about being in the present, the now as much as possible.
Finding the self. What is the self? I know what poppers would say. No matter, though. It's for you to discover, if you want.

Yes, indeed - what is the self? Look for it and see what you find - you may be surprised. And as Satanus has said, it's for you to discover, if you want. Nobody can do that for you, and no matter what anyone else says it will only be meaningful when you look for yourself. Accept nobody's explanation - it is for you alone to find out directly for yourself.

Good thread, AK, and good responses.

jabberwock

I heard someone refer to themself as a Christian atheist only a few weeks ago.

There's actually a Wikipedia article about Christian atheism, though it is not well-written. Apparently, there are even some who believe that God once existed, but has literally died.

I'm more interested in your comments about being culturally Christian. I've heard of and know some people who are culturally Catholic.

In some ways, I think that I will always retain some element of Witness culture. So many of my childhood memories and stories are drenched in Witness events and culture. I have fond memories of the cheese danishes and chocolate pudding served at district conventions. I will never forget how proud I was when my little brother gave his first talk. For better or worse, my Witness upbringing is an indispensable part of who I am.

OnTheWayOut

The world around us insists on labels. I get it with "Agnostic Christianist." It satisfies those around you that insist on some kind of label, but it adds peace by not getting the group of mostly-Christian people around you to try to change it.

"Agnostic" is okay, but they might feel a need to convince you. Adding the "Christianist" part lets the labelists understand that you either lead a generally Christian lifestyle or that you have some leaning toward Christianity (or that you have already examined Christianity).

I am on a very similar path. I feel a certain harmony with eastern philosophy that doesn't go toward belief in an omnipotent creator. That same harmony teaches me to accept that many paths do indeed lead toward peace. Some eastern thought teaches that the universe is recreated every moment. (They have some exact number of moments that are within a single second, but who really cares?) It's a bit of a stretch, but if the universe is constantly recreated, then the unknowable past history of the universe and it's beginning doesn't really matter.

Anyway, on labels- I don't quite like "Agnostic" or "Atheist" as either suggests something. I stick with Bill Maher's "Rationalist." I believe what is evident. I will look at any evidence, but I will treat it with the respect it deserves.

BabaYaga

A very dear friend of mine says that one must be agnostic before they can become Gnostic... that is, they must shed all of the rules and dogmas instilled in them from childhood, to be ready to explore what really is, or to "know". And yes, what really is is not a rule book, but found within oneself. No one can call a taxi to drive you down that road, you have to walk it yourself!

As for the Christian aspect, Jesus was not a Christian, he was an anarchist Jew... and I'm sure he would smile upon your recent discoveries.

Love,
Baba.

ziddina

Would you believe Atheistic Goddess-worshipper?? [Which is a short way of saying I don't believe there is a deity, but I 'worship' Goddesses for a psychological healing of the damage done to my female self-worth by the Middle Eastern male-god religion I was beaten into...]

Zid

jwfacts

"What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak." [Volume 'Reason in Religion' page 5]

What a brilliant quote. I have often used the first part of the sentence, but the comparison to language makes it so much easier to comprehend the full meaning.

I often apply the agnostic to myself. However, my sister had one her first conversations about what I believe with me recently after saying I was agnostic I came away feeling like I had sold myself short. It did not sound like I really had an opinion, whereas I have very strong opinions. I think she felt that I am just floating around and when Armageddon comes I will come running back to the WTS; whereas I wanted to convey that I am strongly against the Watchtower and just because I cannot recommend anywhere better does not justify her remaining a JW.

AK - Jeff

and just because I cannot recommend anywhere better does not justify her remaining a JW.

Good point. In fact, for me, at this moment in my history, it is precisely about not recommending/accepting/finding/attaching to something better. It is about disconnecting from something very weak and without foundation or support - be that Jwism or religion in general. One of the beautiful aspects of it is the detached ability to flourish without hinderance. I can sit and have a lovely conversation with my Lutheran friend, or drink coffee with my atheist buddy. I find no reason to constantly 'save' either one. It's like cheating. I can read between all the lines because the blindings are torn off. My agendas, and everyone has them, are not about 'eternal' things. They are about current things.

Atheists sometimes get nearly militant in opposition to religion. I understand the perspective, but not the emotional baggage. I like the more neutral landing zone of agnostic. I simply don't know. Others can believe or not, that's their choice. I can love them for what they are. Period.

I hope this thread does not seem to indicate a 'new leaf'. It is not that new - but it has taken a while to formulate in my mind.

Jeff

OnTheWayOut

In light of what is now available in writings about Jesus and the early Christians, in order for one to start to learn about the actual historical Jesus (at least the alledged Jesus or the Christians that may have invented him) one needs to empty the mind and take nothing for granted from presumptions and traditions from Christianity. You must go past the Christian faith and doctrine, past the Christian Church.

To empty the mind in such a way, taking nothing for granted and learning about Jesus- this is to enter a Zen state of mind.

Here are some very "eastern" teachings from Jesus from the Bible:

Jesus taught that we cannot enter God's Kingdom unless we become like little children.

Jesus told us to look at the birds and the wild flowers to get inspiration as to how to live joyfully/peacefully.

Jesus taught that the kingdom is already in the midst of us.

Jesus taught that "not everyone saying 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven." Basically, action counts and not membership in a certain group. He did not teach that the kingdom was reserved for an exclusive group of believers. Along with "Do unto others...," Jesus says that it is the good in people that gets them into the kingdom, not their religious piety.

Jesus taught that there was a gentle path to the kingdom, his "yoke is easy, and [his] burden is light."

He told people that "God makes the sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain to the just and the unjust."

Jesus taught people to "love their enemies, and pray for those that persecute you."

The New Agnostic Self

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