of course lets not forget that 1874/1878 were the original dates.......
The WTS will eventually need to either bury or abandon these too as time continues to march onward.
Resurrection date and parousia questions
by jonathan dough 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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bob1999
You read me all wrong. I am not a JW and never will be. I was just stating what the WTS teaches. I know that they are all wrong.
I also know that you are all wrong. How many years were you a JW? I don't think you have cleared you head of all the WTS BS yet. Keep working on it.
The bible is easy to understand. We don't need to "work out" all kinds of dates and things. Revelation and Daniel are not where one finds basics beliefs. Don't get too hung up on prophecy.
Understanding prophecy will not save you. Not understanding prophecy will not comdemn you.
Peace
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Larsinger58
I also know that you are all wrong. How many years were you a JW? I don't think you have cleared you head of all the WTS BS yet. Keep working on it.
JW CORRECTED - In the context of the first resurrection and the paraousia, the parousia is that period leading up to the actual second coming. So the "presence" is a very technical concept that is not to be confused when Christ literally becomes flesh again at the second coming.
Therefore, in general, the "parousia" could be said to have officially begun in 1874 when the Bible students first applied the "1335 days" to the second coming. That insintct was correct but the dating was incorrect. The second coming did not occur until 1992, but Christ became "active" again beginning in 1874. Thus 1874 can be assigned to when "Michael stands up" as stated in Daniel 12:1. This is the beginning of the preparation for the actual second coming. The 1335 days are fulfilled in relation to the end of the gentile times which occur in 1947 when the natural Jews come out of exile, which symbolically ends their "tribulation" though the primary thrust of that tribulation was during the Holocaust. The "days were cut short" or no flesh would be saved per Matthew. That is a reference that the prophesied 2/3rds of the natural Jews that would die during the Holocaust (Zech 13:8) would have been achieved before 1947, thus the war was cut short in 1945. Even so, the scheduled end of the exile remained in 1947, the true end of the 1290 days. The messiah arrives 45 years latter to fulfill the 1335 days in 1992.
Since 1 Thess describes the 1st resurrection being performed while Jesus is still Michael the archangel, we know that the 1st resurrection has to occur before Jesus himself returns in the flesh. So the 1st resurrection occurs before 1992 and thus has already taken place.
So where are these resurrected ones? God is brilliant. Basically, instead of bringing back the saints who had died in their individual bodies, causing a lot of commotion, they are brought back within living bodies of the elect. That way, they don't have to have a SS#, they don't have to learn a new language or spend years catching up with all the history. They exerience life in a shared body with others. But don't worry, 1 Corinthians assures us "just one seed per body." (1 Cor 15:28) So the 1st resurrection has taken place, it's just invisible. I even happen to know the modern identities of Peter and Daniel! When Jesus returns into the flesh at the second coming, he likewise will be using the body of a modern person, which is why the second wave offering depicts Christ in a body "with leaven" whereas the first wave offering was without leaven, representing a sinless body.
So that's the correct interpretation and fulfillment of that issue. Of course, the GB now in spiritual darkness and cast out as the "evil slave" and "man of lawlessness" are just looking on at this point. They don't understand these things.
LS
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Larsinger58
The 1st resurrection is going to be jus like Jesus Christ's appearance in the flesh at the second coming. They are all going to be using modern bodies. This, of course, is rather sci-fi, but it makes sense.
The important thing to note though is that it is a two-phase operation. First comes the physical body and then the spiritual. First the body of corruption and then the body of incorruption. But 1 Corinthians tells us when the incorruptible body occurs and that is after man's last enemy death has been done away with. Read Revelation. Death and Hades is not thrown into the lake of fire until after the second resurrection. The second resurrection does not take place until Judgment Day. Judgment Day does not take place until after Satan is killed, and Satan is not killed until after the millennium. In the meantime, the 1st resurrection has to occur before the second coming!
Thus when 1 Cor 15 says these resurrected ones, like "seeds" are sown into corruption and weakness and dishonor and a physical body, it is talking about imperfect anointed ones who are alive prior to the 2nd coming. That is, they are implanted into living bodies already here. Not newly formed bodies coming out of the cemeteries like in some living dead movie. That means that the 1st resurrection is not only invisible, but there's no orientation! They come back with a SS# and speaking the modern language and all the modern knowledge of the person they inhabit.
As for the individual they share the body with, technically all we are are our conscious memory! Do we remember who we were when we were a teenager? Sure. Are we that same person? Yes and no. So subjectively that is how it would be. You'd just remember a past life and identify with it. Now God chooses a body for each and, of course, would make a pick that is psychologically and emotionally well matched.
But that's how it works. Before the second coming, which was in 1992, the 1st resurrection took place while Jesus was still Michael the archangel. These "seeds" were sown into modern people and given modern identities, thus the resurrection was invisible. Jesus Christ, then returns in the flesh as well being placed into a modern body of one of his followers and all of them remain in the flesh through the end of the last days up until Armageddon, then rule for 1000 years on the earth, then endure Satan's last test and rebellion, then after that Judgment Day. Then after that, when death is no more and the last man has been judged, then is when corruption puts on incorruption and they all TOGEGHER (1 Thess 4:18) are transformed in a twinkling of an eye into their heavenly bodies.
In other words, there's a lot of work cut out for the saints. By the time they are up in heaven sipping on pina coladas all day and singing karaoke they would have earned those crowns and that heavenly life by helping others to get eternal life on the earth.
A challenging interpretation, for sure, but completely Biblical and completely historical now that we're well past the 2nd coming in 1992. So as I said, if you're of the elect you would be aware of this, and I just happen to personally know the modern identity of Peter and Daniel, as far as famous Biblical people. So that's the truth and reality, but, of course, how but the elect can believe it?
ACTS 13:41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’"
So, just in case someone here was truly interested in the correct understanding....
LS
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jonathan dough
JW CORRECTED - In the context of the first resurrection and the paraousia, the parousia is that period leading up to the actual second coming. So the "presence" is a very technical concept that is not to be confused when Christ literally becomes flesh again at the second coming.
I'm sorry, Larsinger, but I don't think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about and you're just making this stuff up. Where in the WTBS literature does it support these theories? That is the original question.
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Alwayshere
LARSINGER AND NO LONGER HELD CAPTIVE MAKE A GOOD PAIR.
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jonathan dough
I beleive in 2007 they say that the ressurection "MAY" have started in 1918.
Any way to pin down the exact quote?
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bohm
Hey Jonathan!
I am not 100% about the angle in your second question, but if it is to establish the exact terms the WTS use to describe what happened in 1914 i think its pretty interesting -- i mean, if there is going to be new light, it might begin by using a more 'loose' wording that everyone will *know* what means, but may actually be read another way in 10-20 years.. Anyway, there is a description of 1914 in the january edition of the WT, check it out here: http://www.box.net/shared/t4yfvthtc3 , 1914 is mentioned once at the bottom left part of page 31.
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yknot
*** w08 2/15 pp. 21-22 par. 3 Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You? ***
3 What of the “presence” that the apostles asked about? This is the translation of the Greek word pa·rou·si′a. Christ’s pa·rou·si′a, or presence, started with Jesus’ installation as King in heaven in 1914 and continues on to include the “great tribulation,” during which he comes to destroy the wicked. (Matt. 24:21) Many different things, including “the last days” of this wicked system of things, the gathering of the chosen ones, and their resurrection to heavenly life, occur during this presence of Jesus. (2 Tim. 3:1; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 2 Thess. 2:1) It could be said that the period constituting “the conclusion of the system of things” (syn·te′lei·a) corresponds to or runs parallel with the period called Christ’s presence (pa·rou·si′a).
*** w54 6/15 p. 372 The Revelation of Jesus Christ ***
PRESENCE, MANIFESTATION, REVELATION11 The Christian Greek Scriptures make a clear distinction between the three phases or aspects of Christ’s second advent by using a different Greek word in each instance. The word parousía is consistently translated “presence” in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures because that is the actual meaning of the word in the original. As applied to the second coming of Christ it is used to indicate either the years of the beginning of his visit or to refer to the entire time he is with mankind. This time began in 1914 and means that Christ is now present though invisible.
12 A second word, epipháneia, translated “manifestation,” means appearing, manifestation or a coming to light or to view. The use of this word points to Christ’s appearance in the temple for judgment in 1918 and marks the beginning of favorable judgment, first, in the resurrection of the anointed already asleep in death (2 Tim. 4:8) and, second, in the entrusting of Kingdom interests to those of the anointed found faithful on earth.
13 The third word, apokálypsis, which is translated “revelation,” means a disclosure, taking off the covering, or uncovering. When this word is used it indicates that a clear and unobstructed view is meant, and in connection with Christ’s second presence it refers to the time his manifestation is turned into an unmistakable revelation at Armageddon and even the unwilling are forced to recognize his presence.
14 It is significant to note also in regard to the pattern that has been set that each presence is accompanied by an outstanding sign. This serves to identify the representative of Jehovah and establish him as having authority. Also it serves to clarify the purpose of the visit as well as to fix the responsibility of the people. This becomes evident in considering the first presence of Jesus Christ. Many things had been foretold by the Jewish prophets that would be fulfilled in the Messiah. However, until he presented himself it would be impossible to determine accurately just how he would accomplish the purpose of his visit, or, for that matter, just what the full purpose of his presence would be. For this reason the self-wise religious leaders among the Jews stumbled at Christ’s first presence, endeavoring to read into the prophecies interpretations of their own that did not conform to God’s will in sending his Messiah. Their minds had not been braced up by the patterns that had been recorded and they were not prepared for the kind of activity the presence of the Messiah in their midst called for. Lo
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jonathan dough
Thank you, Bohm and Ynot, and everyone else. The purpose of my first question regarding the first resurrection is to see if they have changed their position again. My reading is that the "Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the first resurrection, for the 144,000 only, began in 1918 and will conclude shortly (Revelation Climax, 103, 277)." This has been proven wrong, obviously, and I was just wondering if they modified it, which they might have, by claiming it "may" have happened," thereby protecting themselves after-the-fact. So I'm kind of looking for any kind of "may" language they are using to wriggle out of this one. I devoted a short section to 1918 here but want to keep it up-to-date: http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-5.html#VI
With respect to the second question, my reading of what you provided and what I have read means the parousia began in 1914 according to JW lore, and THAT is the so-called Second Coming of Christ, which is another theory they are attempting to distance themselves from; that Christ's parousia is TODAY. The reason for my question is Christ's warning at Matthew 24:26 (be careful of those who claim he is in the desert and in the inner chamber). If I didn't know better I'd say He was warning us about the JWs who claim Christ has already returned.