Trinity, Trinity, Trinity...

by Mazzie Brossmann 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Ténébreux
    Ténébreux

    I wouldn't say I'm a believer in the Trinity, but I do find it an interesting concept to think about. It occurred to me recently that the whole "ransom sacrifice" thing actually makes a bit more sense in that context. If the Father and Son are two completely separate entities, you sort of think "WTF? How can a loving father send his son off to die like that?" But if Father and Son are manifestations of the same God, then it's a bit different - God paid the debt himself by sacrificing his own human nature. In that light it becomes a genuine act of love and not callousness.

    Anyone else agree? Or do I just really need to get out more?

  • Gill
    Gill

    The Trinity has its roots in Ancient Egypt and Babylon.

    We have Horis, Isis and Osiris.

    We have Nimrod, Semiramis and TammuZ - Tammuz being the sacrificed son of God on the Cross etc.

    This evolved into the Christian doctrine of Trinity as practiced by all religions including the JWs, Jehovah, Jesus and God's Wife like Orgaization as they call themselves.

    The religions today are 'children' of the original Mystery Schools. The Mystery schools have never died out and evidence of their continual existence is all around us. They still rule the world.

    It is all 'same old, same old'!

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    Tenebreux, right there with you. I had always failed to see how sending someone else off to die was an act of love. Seems more selfish than anything. "I want this, so you go die for me."

    And if Jesus is just a man, then what's the big deal? Moses offered to die for the people and there have been other men and women across the millenium who have sacrificed their lives in order to save their fellow man. So if Jesus was just a man, then this "great sacrifice" is nothing special. Now, however, if Jesus is actually the physical manifestation of God, in the form of His Son, that's a different story. A God and Creator who loves His creation so much that He is willing to suffer and take their punishment upon Himself...now that's just awesome!

    Furthermore, when you look at the fact that God required a perfect physically perfect sacrifice in the OT, it would stand to reason that He would require a spiritually/morally perfect sacrifice to forever reconcile us back to Himself. We're told that none of us is perfect, and if we're honest, we don't even need the Bible to tell us that. God is the only one who is perfect. Therefore if a perfect sacrfice is required, it must be God Himself for nothing else can meet the requirements.

    Although, that being said, I can't say that I understand it all...cause I don't.

    That's a high level of confidence you speak with Gill. There aren't many people I know that speak with that level of surety on much of anything, let alone spiritual things.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Tenebreux and Slappy!

    What words of wisdom.

    I agree totally, yet I feel no need to embrace the Trinity.

    The very thought of the awesome God of the Bible taking on humanity fills me with worship.

    Sylvia

  • lovelylil2
    lovelylil2

    Tenebreux said;

    It occurred to me recently that the whole "ransom sacrifice" thing actually makes a bit more sense in that context. If the Father and Son are two completely separate entities, you sort of think "WTF? How can a loving father send his son off to die like that?" But if Father and Son are manifestations of the same God, then it's a bit different - God paid the debt himself by sacrificing his own human nature. In that light it becomes a genuine act of love and not callousness.

    Anyone else agree? Or do I just really need to get out more?

    I say;

    Agreed!

    You said it very well. I cannot add any more to that. Peace, Lilly

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    It occurred to me recently that the whole "ransom sacrifice" thing actually makes a bit more sense in that context. If the Father and Son are two completely separate entities, you sort of think "WTF? How can a loving father send his son off to die like that?" But if Father and Son are manifestations of the same God, then it's a bit different - God paid the debt himself by sacrificing his own human nature. In that light it becomes a genuine act of love and not callousness.

    Anyone else agree? Or do I just really need to get out more?

    Also agreed! These verses help explain what you have described.

    Philippians 2:5-11 (New International Version)

    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • dig692
    dig692

    Thank you for addressing my questions Slappy! And for suggesting to look at the ESV Bible. It's starting to make some sense actually, not reading from the NWT and trying to take off my "JW lenses"

    Chalam-thank you as well for posting those scriptures. One point I'm having trouble with is

    "Each of these three possesses the attributes of deity—including omnipresence (Ps. 139:7; Jer. 23:23–24; Matt. 28:20), omniscience (Ps. 147:5; John 16:30; 1 Cor. 2:10–11), omnipotence (Jer. 32:17; John 2:1–11; Rom. 15:19), and eternality (Ps. 90:2; Heb. 9:14; Rev. 22:13). "

    particularly the part about omniscience. If each of the three possess that attribute, then how does one account for Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone" or the other scripture that escapes me at this time where Jesus says "the Father is greater than I am" -- Is this because Jesus was in the nature of Man and no longer God?

    Appreciate the responses all!

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    Um, that's a good question dig. I've heard that question before, but never from the angle that you present it. I cannot give any definitive answer, and I'm not sure I should even try, seeing that I may confuse the issue even more. But I will make an attempt, and this is more me just putting some thoughts down and seeing what comes of them.

    Let's start with John 15:15 since that's the first portion that came to my mind: "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you."

    This seems to suggest that, since Jesus only knows what the Father gives Him to know, Jesus is not omniscient and therefore not God. However, let's try to stay away from pulling one verse and forming a doctrine around it. Let's instead view everything within the context of the entire Bible and let other portions build and/or balance the idea that is presented in any specific portion (a very healthy and systematic way to understand the Bible).

    Chalam has already given Philippians 2:5-11 so I won't quote all of it again. (Philippians is my favorite book btw; chapter 3 verses 12-16 is imperative to keep in mind as we seek to know God, for it keeps us grounded. If Paul didn't think he had reached a 'pinnacle' of knowing God, then why should we?) However look at verse 7. Quoting from the NASB, held by many Bible-wise people to be the most literal word-for-word translation yet, we get "...but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men..." This portion in Philippians is the strongest evidence for the manifestation of God in the flesh, and one that I, as of yet, have yet to hear refuted. So what is meant by "emptied Himself"? First off, there must be something there to be emptied of. Secondly, it was only once He had emptied himself that He was able to come in the likeness of men. So by emptying Himself of His "godness" as it were, would not knowledge be a part of what was emptied? I can't say with certainty, but it does make sense. So being emptied of His omniscience, He was dependent on the Father (shown through His many prayers; which also gives us the example to follow) to reveal what was necessary for us to know; the knowledge of the "last day" not being a part of what we needed to know.

    Not sure if that helps in any way or just muddies things more. If it's the latter, then I apologize; if the former, then thank God.

    ps. The first five chapters of Hebrews present an excellent in-depth look at the person of Christ and the reason for the need of God to come in the form of man (Heb. 4:15 is awesome on this point!).

  • Slappy
  • Slappy
    Slappy

    Wasn't posting everything so I just deleted all of it...sorry

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