E-Watchman vs. Tim Kilgore Resurrection/Recreation Smackdown!

by Tuesday 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    Alright so it's not as heated as I make it seem in my opening, but I said I'd keep everyone posted on this. I would've posted the video here to get everyone's feedback but the response wasn't anything I hadn't dealt with a hundred times before, now it's just in video form. In fact it was supposed to be an answer to my first tough question about resurrection vs. recreation but it didn't even answer the question at all, at least i feel. He essentially used my same example I used that makes the whole idea fishy as an example of why it's possible, which obviously I pointed out. Anyway so here's the series, this is my initial video (which most of you have seen)....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7B14DsW9O4

    Here is E-Watchman's response to this video...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHE9m5LoOmI

    Finally here is my response to E-Watchman, which I'm hoping pointed out everything but if it didn't feel free to leave comments....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq2B03AfZBM

    Thanks folks, hope you enjoy!

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Yeah, I remember when I was presenting an article I found in popular mechanics concerning the possibility of teleporting. The teleportation devices would transmit matter by destroying it in one telepod and recreating it in another with the exact same physical parameters and states that was recorded of the matter destroyed.

    So if you use this device to transport yourself, your body would be destroyed at the source and would be recreated at the destination. You would literally been given a whole new body. Question is, what about the soul? If the soul is seperate from the body then would the soul find and inhabit the new body? If the JW's are correct in that a living body is the living soul then the telepods would destroy one living soul while recreating a new one.

    The e-watchman didn't really answer your questions all he did was try to explain how recreation is not recreation but reassurection. Christians believe that the soul and body are seperate in that when we die our souls go to be with the Lord and when the day of reasurection comes, we're giving new glorified bodies for our souls to inhabit.

  • teel
    teel
    Christians believe that the soul and body are seperate in that when we die our souls go to be with the Lord and when the day of reasurection comes, we're giving new glorified bodies for our souls to inhabit.

    This. E-Watchman thinks this dilemma applies to other religions too, of being recreated in heaven. No it doesn't. In most other religions souls are not recreated, they are kept in their original form.

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    I probably should've posted this first, I missed the point about a soul. Gah, well if he responds to the video I'll make sure to mention about the immortal soul. I somewhat alluded to it with the "There's got to be something else". Thanks for the comments guys, the teleportation idea is phenominal, I can't believe I didn't think of that.

  • garyneal
    garyneal
    the teleportation idea is phenominal, I can't believe I didn't think of that.

    Yeah, it does give food for thought. I think at present scientist have been able to teleport an electron and they are working their way up to a virus. Keep in mind, though, that this teleportation technology is not the same as what we see on Star Trek. We're not even close to that kind of technology where matter is converted to energy (not destroyed) and transported to another location where it is converted back into matter. That kind of teleporting doesn't necessarily raise the question about the immortal soul as much as the one we're currently tinkering with.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Still no definitive answer then?! Good to see a debate without emotional irrationality, although E-watchman didn't answer the question that was posed he did come across as sane. Great post Tim, and well argued.

    Right I'm going to go back to my Star Trek DVD's

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Resurrection.. Re-Creation..Re-Encarnation..

    Not much difference..

    You say Tomatoe..I say Tomawtoe..

    You really need a different subject..

    There is never going to be a clear cut winner on a subject like that..

    Surprisingly..King did alright..

    .................... ...OUTLAW

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    My reaction after Tim's first video: This sounds like a purely semantic argument. Unimportant.

    My reaction after Robert's response: Yup, this is a purely worthless semantic argument.

    My reaction after Tim's final response: AHA! So THAT is what makes this argument important. Well played, Tim.

    Conclusion: If you watch the first or first two videos and feel like you're wasting your time, don't quit. It all comes together in the third one. Or maybe I'm just dense and didn't "get it" until the third one. Either way, I recommend watching them all.

  • bohm
    bohm

    just a thing about teleportation. I took a course in quantum optics, and the guy who had it was leading a group who was in nature because of a teleportation experiment they did. Unless something radical has happened i have not heard off, i think this (and similar) is the teleportationexperiment you are referring to.

    What they are teleporting is a quantum state and not matter. In quantum mechanics, there are properties of the system which may be independently measured, but cannot be known fully at the same time - for example the momentum and position of a particle, but in this case it was properties related to something called the spin, which is a longer story.

    Anyway, since these properties cannot be measured at the same time (quantum mechanics dictate that once one of them has been measured, the value of the other *must* have been altered), it is not simply possible to measure the two quantum states and then prepare another atom at another location in the same way.

    That was before this experiment: Essentially what they did was to transfer the (unknowable) combined quantum properties to a lighpulse, and then use the lighpulse to prepare a different atom in the same state. So regarding to the statement 'the original object must be destroyed' that is not true either: Nothing happened to the original atom, except its quantum state was altered - it must be so because of the quantum no-cloning theorem [no diceplay and no cloning - God is apparently a republican ;-)]. We can actually proove the quantum no-cloning theorem allready: If the state of the original atom was not lost, we could clone the quantum state a lot of times, and then measure the two quantum numbers independently on different atoms and estimate the original, unknowable, quantum state. But i digress :-).

    Anyway, that was it. This has really interesting applications in quantum cryptography and possibly for building a quantum computer - and it is interesting to see what quantum properties and on which systems (atoms, electrones, holes in semiconductors, phonons and other pseudo-particles in superconductors) - but as far as i can tell it has nothing to do with teleporting anything biologically. As far as i know, the quantum state of the atoms in a virus matters didly squat as far as its biological function: A virus is a virus is a virus, so what we are interested in is a way to quickly assemble atoms - thats properly more like nanotechnology.

  • bohm
    bohm

    By the way Tuesday - i am really looking forward to seing these videos, after i saw you destroy biblethumber. But i think there is a huge problem here about the soul : Its really not very well defined (ei. no scientific theory of the brain, so IMHO even from a scientific standpoint, the soul is not 100% ruled out, at least not if we allow for a wide definition), and i am afraid nothing more than semantics can come out of it - did he choose the topic?

    Besides that - i think its really cool of you to take him on. I hope you get to touch more difficult topics.

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