If I should ask this to a relative JW...
- Why should God need a human organisation on earth anyway?
What answer will I get?
Any scripts that they probably will show up to support this thinking?
Anything that i can say as an answer on that?
Why should God need a human organisation on earth?
by Dold Agenda 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Dold Agenda
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Your JW relative will likely say that God has always had an organization. He will point to examples such as Noah's day (you had to affiliate yourself with Noah in order to survive), the nation of Israel, and the First Century Christian Congregation.
You could respond with questions such as these:
- What organization did Job belong to?
- What was God's organization between A.D. 200 and the 1870s?
Another line of reasoning that JWs will use is: The Bible says the Good News has to be preached before the end comes. How else could the Good News be preached worldwide without an organization?
Note that this is a bit of circular reasoning--the Witnesses basically say that the Good News has to be preached, and the JW/WT organization is doing that preaching; thus there must be an organization and it must be the JW/WT faith. Now, in order to accept this line of reasoning, you must agree that we are in the "last days" as described by the Watchtower. If we're not in the "last days," then our situation is no different from folks in the 1400s when there was no true organization, according to the Witnesses.
So, I would approach it this way:
- Get the JW to admit that there was no "true Christian" organization in the 1400s (the WT teaches that this was the period of the wheat and the weeds where it was difficult to distinguish true/false Christians).
- Ask the JW why God didn't need an organization then, but needs one now? [The JW will likely say that it's because we're in the "last days" now and the Good News needs to be preached now.]
- Ask the JW something like this: "Ok, so you're saying that the reason God needs an organization is because we're in the last days? So, if it wasn't the last days, then God wouldn't necessarily need an organization, right? You admitted that he didn't need one during the Middle Ages, right?"
- Then--if you wish--go in for the kill: "So, how do you know it's the last days--it's because the WT organization says so, right? Isn't that circular reasoning? You say that God needs an organization because it's the last days, but the WT organization is the one telling you it's the last days? Doesn't that seem a bit sketchy to you?"
- The JW will likely stick to his guns on the last days issue, probably saying that the Bible is clear that these are the last days. This is fine. Use this as an opportunity to make him prove that the last days began in 1914. It's a great opportunity to poke holes in the 607 doctrine and highlight the WT's false prophecies and dubious history.
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acolytes
It depends on where they get their sources.
According to one Wathtower this organisation started ¨with Adam & Eve.
What I would say to any responce I got would be "Well that explains it" and leave it at that.
Acolytes
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teel
For an indepth discussion check the Does Jehovah require an Organization? article on jwfacts.com.
I try to put here some of the arguments from the Reasoning from the Scriptures book, and some of my own inane comments. I don't have the book in english, so no direct quotes now.
First the definition mentions: 'Jehovah's baptized witnesses don't join Jehovah's organization because of their birth or coercion." JWs imply that in other religion people are "born-in". I found that not true - although I was baptized as a child in a protestant church, I was never considered member of the organization until age 18, by my consent. JWs on the other hand baptize children even below age 10, and that automatically means joining the organization too.
The Reasoning book gives these proofs as to God has to have a human organization:
The angels are organized - Daniel 7:9,10 , Psalm 103:20,21 - no comments here, obviously the angels are organized in a very different way, for example I doubt they give in time slips.
God always gave instructions to his people in an organized way - here it talks about Moses leading the people out, the israelites and the priesthood, then He gave instructions through Jesus, and after that there were elders and was a first century Governing Body; for this last part the verses Acts 14:23 , 16:4,5 , Gal 2:7-10 are given. This is a very important part of their reasoning. But it neglects the fact, that even though an organization was always necessary (anarchy often just won't cut it), God only used the organization, it was not an integral part of His plan. This is why we can find a huge number of occasions when people went against the instructions given from the organizations that was supposed to be God's own, and they were blessed by God. The Hebrew scriptures are chok full of instances when the organization went corrupt and individuals were trying to put things right, because they knew God doesn't like it the way it is right then. After converting to christianism the apostle Paul didn't wait for orders from the organization, but went on to preach, and even later when he visited Jerusalem, he didn't went to the group that the JWs call "first century Governing Body": Galatians 1:17-19
The creation around us proves that Jehovah is an organized God - yep, so He must know the eternal human rule: "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely". He sure didn't make a mistake to actually put men to lead other men - like blind leading the blind.
The Bible implies that the true christians will be organized Matthew 24:14, 28:19,20 - how can one preach the good news without organization? Well, like Paul did, as I quoted earlier. Hebrews 10:24,25 - where to lead others, if there's no organization? Well, how about doing literaly what that scripture tells us, instead of trying to force an organization into it? That scripture doesn't tell me anything of a need for an organization.
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PSacramento
Its funny, but IF God had always had an "oganization" around from the very beginning then one wonders why God had always gone OUTSIDE of it.
Moses was NOT part of the Hebrew faith or priesthood ( in whateve form it exisisted at the time), neither was Job, there is no indication of Noah being part of it, Abraham certainly wasn't and neither was Daniel and what did Jesus do when he came to Earth? did he preach WITH the "ogranization" at the time? did he choose from them people to be his apostles? NO.
Fact is, Paul went against the "organizationla norm" and there is NO record of any organization as such dictating terms to its followers BEFORE the establishment of the RCC.
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frankiespeakin
Why should God need a human organisation on earth?
Because he's lazy and he don't know what he's doing?
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WTWizard
Because He wants to tyrannize mankind. Having an organization on Earth is the best way to do that. All of mankind is supposed to belong to that organization, and do as they tell. Without an organization, we might have a benevolent governor like Nimrod that would lead civilization to unheard of heights, create our own deliverance, and leave that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag without any way to extort obedience out of us. Or, someone like Jesus would shoot Jehovah's authority so full of holes that he would have destroyed Jehovah's authority.
My question: Why should God deserve a damn organization, either in heaven or on earth? He doesn't.
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Dold Agenda
Olin Moyles Ghost
This is a great answer, exactly what I was searching about!
We discuss this, your answer, in our sweden xJw-forum right now.http://www.hjalpkallan.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9175
More of this!
More input and thinking to this question appreciates!
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Butterflyleia85
Well said teel... (doing research on organization and God)
Have to look up each scripture and find answers to:
1 Corinthians 1:10
Heb 10:24, 25
2 Cor 6:15-18
1 Peter 2:17
Acts 15:14-18
Acts 15:22-31
Acts 16:4, 5
Eph 4:11-16
Titus 1:5
1Ti 3:1-13
1Pe 5:2, 3
Joshua 23:2
Acts 14:23
Acts 20:28
1 Cor 11:3
Psalms 133:1 -
Butterflyleia85
Here is their claim:
1 Corinthians 1:10; I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
Heb 10:24, 25; And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
2 Cor 6:15-18; What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
1 Peter 2:17; Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
Acts 15:14-18; Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.
Acts 15:22-31; Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. 30The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.
Acts 16:4; As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.
Eph 4:11-16; It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Titus 1:5; The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
1Ti 3:1-10; Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. 8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
1Pe 5:2, 3; Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
Joshua 23:1, 2; And it came to pass a long time after that Jehovah had given rest to Israel from all their enemies round about, and Joshua had become old, advanced in age, 2that Joshua called for all Israel, for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers
Acts 14:23; Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
Acts 20:28; Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
1 Cor 11:3; Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Psalms 133:1; How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity!
Those Scriptures sure do sound like God's people are organized! The Bible clearly speaks of unity and organization. To rebel against God's clear message in the Bible is foolishness.
Proverbs 18:1; He who separates himself seeks his own desire,
He quarrels against all sound wisdom.
Please do not brush off God and the Bible. Please take time to meditate on these Scriptures and seek the worldwide Christian congregation that sticks closely to the Bible. Jehovah loves you and He does not want you to perish with this world and its supporters.