Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave 84 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  KalebOutWest

  Rattigan350:

  It is ridiculous that people would think that he would burn her.

  Yes...and no.

  As I stated in my post, Judaism itself has no consensus on what exactly happened to Seila, Jeptha's daughter.

  But that may be the precise point.

  Hebrew writing is more complicated and complex than previously thought or imagined by the scholars of the 1800s who developed some of the first critical practices and methods. We have since learned that if something is left open for questioning, it is generally not without purpose.

  The Book of Job does this in a very blatant manner. Job spends the entire book asking why is he having to suffer, begging to hear the answer from God. When God does reply, the answer is essentially: "You tell me, if you're so smart!" In other words, why claim that something is broken if you didn't make it in the first place--it might be working exactly as designed. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it needs fixing.

  The same type of story-telling might be employed here as well. It's not about the daughter. It's about Jeptha and his vow, and what we can learn from it--namely doing stupid things from thinking we are "all that and a bag of chips," as it is often said.

  We often think we know it all and we are big stuff, and because of pride we get stupid--and it costs lives...even our own.

  The story is not historical, so arguing over the details is falling into the very trap that the story warns about, namely thinking you can know it all.

  The Watchtower tries to make it sound a certain way since they believe in a supernatural deity, a personal God that is righteous and would never allow or accept human sacrifice. They also believe that the Bible is a historical document. If it isn't, then their religion falls apart. So they argue for ways to make it sound reasonable.

  I promise you that the Jewish world knows the story is composed of folklore, legend and myth. Even if some of the elements may have kernels of history, the story is a legend. Nobody could die falling apart piece by piece by piece and be buried in various towns and cities until there was nothing left of them. The reason for this death is to imply that Jeptha cut up Seila in this manner and God had repaid him in the same way. This is mythological.

  It doesn't matter what happened to the daughter. Stories in the Biblical narrative are about YOU. What does this prevent you from acting like? How does it make you better?

  Are you supposed to learn from what happened to Seila? Or is it really the example of Jeptha's rash vow wherein the lesson is to be found?

  If you concentrate on the daughter, you have missed everything.
• 

  peacefulpete

  Rattigan...What is ridiculous?

  A human sacrifice for good of a community thru appeasement of a god? (John 18:14 "...it would be good if one man died for the people."

  How about a god sending his people to war where many are killed? (Judges 20)

  Are they not human sacrifices to please a god?

  Or the burning alive members of the tribe that behave in unapproved manner?

  Lev 21:9 As for the daughter of a priest who profanes herself with promiscuity (liznot): it is her father whom she defiles. She shall be burned with fire.
  Lev 20:14 If a man marries a woman and her mother, it is lewdness; both he and they shall be burned with fire...

  Are they not also human sacrifices for the appeasement of a god?
• 

  peacefulpete

  To further illustrate how people's sense of decency and compassion can become derailed by religious zealotry, ancient Rabbis described/imagined the procedure for burning a person. Because the human is in God's "image" they felt it appropriate for the person to be burned from the inside.

  R. Judah says: “Even he, if he died by their hand, they have not upheld the commandment of burning with respect to him. Rather, they should open his mouth with a pair of tongs against his will, and he lights the wick (later defined as molten lead) and throws it into his mouth, and it descends into his belly and burns his bowels.”
  (b. Pesach. 75a; b. Sanh 7:2, 52a),
• 

  peacefulpete

  Kaleb, apart from the stories originating within your culture, how are these tales different from nursery rhymes like the Little Old Lady Who lived in a Shoe?

  There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.

  She had so many children, she didn't know what to do.

  She gave them some broth without any bread;

  And whipped them all soundly and put them to bed.

  
  

  
  

  Here we have a story/poem about child neglect and abuse. Is there cultural value in this story? Does it remind us the value of family planning? Is it less or equal to stories of Abraham's abandonment of Hagar.

  I am interested in your perspective.
• 

  KalebOutWest

  Peacefulpete:

  Good question.The narratives in a law book are not bedtime stories.

  For instance, one might come across a leash law in a law book. Then the book reads:

  One the morning of November 7, 1972, one Irene Hart took her dog, Pepper. A female poodle, outside to do it's morning business. The mailman came earlier on his route that day, and Pepper, who usually was inside during the mail's usual delivery time, became aroused and ran towards the mail courier. Startled, the mailman fell back into the neighborhood street, causing one Mr. Robert J. Peterson, 37, to steer his car into a street sign, hitting his head on his steering wheel....

  Stories in law books aren't there with all their gruesome details to entertain the readers. They are there to demonstrate the reason for the laws or their application.

  It is supposed to be similar with the Torah and the other books of Jewish Scripture, which were read as supplements during the year to the parasha of each Torah reading in the liturgy.

  I personally don't necessarily agree with this view all the time or with what is written in the texts.

  I don't think my Jewish people were any more special than any other culture or "chosen" or have a "true religion."

  I don't believe the Bible is inspired. I think some of our stories are violent and horrific. Some are okay.

  There is wisdom in every culture, and horrific and violent stories in some other myths from other ancient people too.

  I don't recommend violence from anywhere, regardless of where it comes from.

  Jews are NOT special. Just because I am Jewish doesn't mean anything. I just know this stuff because I went through the torture of years of Hebrew school and then taught it. I had no control of being born to Jews.

  I am an exJW, you guys talk about the Bible, so I talk about what I know.

  If I knew about Mickey Mouse, and that was the subject. I would ttalk. But we're not talking Disney, and that's not what I spent a decade studying under a rabbi who never used my name but only called me: "Hey, Sephardic Boy."

  It just so happens that the Watchtower is based on the Bible and I was born to Sephardic Jews--and was there for a short time in a Kingdom Hall. Jews get formal education in their culture, usually for those 10 years, so I share what I know.

  It does not mean I approve of these stories, believe in the supernatural, believe in the God of the Bible, pray, etc. I don't.

  But, yes. The rabbis believe these stories teach mitzvah.

  The Jewish Study Bible, published by the Jewish Publication Society, explains this in the footnotes.

  Old woman in a shoe? Oy vey. I wish.
• 

  peacefulpete

  Thankyou. I agree there might have been a more political/sectarian motive behind many Bible stories than for 'The Little Old Lady in a Shoe', at least as they were utilized by the compilers; and yet the use of narrative, rhythm, and imagery makes religious teachings more memorable and accessible, helping listeners internalize ideas and tribal values. Entertainment with a message....... The problem is the message. Sadly, as you said, surrounding timeless values of loyalty and valor, are images of genocide and intolerance. Many of the old nursery rhymes and stories were violent and horrific, as well. Wonder why.
• 

  peacefulpete

  Took the dog for a walk and thought some more about it. I imagine the tales/rhymes of horrific detail reflected the realities of the day. The plagues, the war, the poverty. A societal coping mechanism of sorts. Found this article:

  https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150610-the-dark-side-of-nursery-rhymes

  Would not the stories from the deeper past, in part, have served a similar function?
• 

  peacefulpete

  Kaleb said, There is wisdom in every culture, and horrific and violent stories (and laws) in some other myths from other ancient people too.

  Absolutely
  
  

  Laws of Hammurabi:

  LH 110 If a naditu (woman of priestly caste) who is an ugbabtu (i.e., a priestess) who does not reside within the cloister should open (the door to) a tavern or enter a tavern for some beer, they shall burn that woman.
  LH 157 If a man, after his father’s death, should lie with his mother, they shall burn them both.

  Martha T. Roth, Law Collections from Mesopotamia and Asia Minor, (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1997)
• 

  KalebOutWest

  Thankyou. I agree there might have been a more political/sectarian motive behind many Bible stories than for 'The Little Old Lady in a Shoe', at least as they were utilized by the compilers

  I didn't say that, Pete.

  This is what I really hate about a few exJWs I've met, either here or elsewhere.

  It's like this guy I met in a supermarket who kept jabbering on about how he hated Jane Fonda and how he wanted to kill her, no matter what I said (so I got away fast). The guy heard in my words his mudererous thoughts being repeated no matter what I said.

  Some people have this other tune about the Bible playing in their head.

  No matter what I say, they hear their words instead.

  (The only time I made an even slightly similar statement was in the introduction to a complerely different post that had nothing to do with our conversation.)

  I am finished. You don't need me. You have you. Apparently, YOU is all you need.

  Fuck me...real hard!
• 

  peacefulpete

  Stories in law books aren't there with all their gruesome details to entertain the readers. They are there to demonstrate the reason for the laws or their application.

  Well, I understood that line above to be clear enough. The stories were 'there to demonstrate (religious/national) laws'. That those laws were unique to a sect makes them sectarian laws. So my comment agreeing that there was a 'sectarian motive behind the stories' wasn't rooted in some dark hate for the Bible, it was agreeing with your comment. I don't know why you keep blowing up.