by minimus 392 Replies latest jw friends
Matt Dawg shot up some heroin and in his delusional state managed to type out "Are you human? Or did your path come from aliens?"
You do not need books or dictates from humans to discover true spirituality, you can do it on your own. I leave it to you to figure out how to do so. No human can tell you what spirituality is you have to experience for yourself and you won't find it in a book.
I'm not sure if you are talking to aliens, but as of yet, I have not seen, heard, or spoken to any aliens.
TBH Happy Guy , I would not put your beliefs in the same kind of language, but I'm tending to agree with you
Matt Dawg talked to his dog and then posited (from his dog): "As you clearly have an axe to grind, it is too much to expect any examination of any argument that could possibly shed a positive light on God. "
I was not offering an argument to explain god, I posed a scenario that is very straightforward where innocent people are suffering due to the effects of something god supposedly did (creating the black fly and the worm that causes river blindness).
I gave this example so that religionists who were skirting around answering the question posed by the topic of this thread with irrelevent issues such as "man's inability to govern himself", "the universal sovereignty issue", "the victims being punished for their evil and wicked ways", would not be able to deflect the responsbility from God onto the victims. I posed the scenario to get an honest answer from the religionists, I did not offer any explanation, and after 16 pages of posts we are STILL waiting for a straightfoward answer to the topic of this thread that does not shift the responsibility off of god onto the victims.
So far nothing that has been said has even come close to shedding a positive light on God where the unnecessary suffering of innocents is concerned.
Agreed, HG.
Is there a way to shift the mentality to change this? I don't think there is - those who want there to be a God at any cost will never default to logical thought I am afraid. I still love those folks though.
Keep your BP under control if you can, though I know how frustrating it is.
Jeff
I did not offer any explanation, and after 16 pages of posts we are STILL waiting for a straightfoward answer to the topic of this thread that does not shift the responsibility off of god onto the victims.
You are posing a question that is a "question for the ages", did you expect an answer to sowething that has been asked since the beginning of "religion"?
Many of the "answers" may not be to your liking, I am sure some fundamentalists can asnwer it quite easily, as is the case that is typical with extreme groups and why they can attaract some people, they have the answer to your questions, even if ot may not be one you liek to hear.
They also have a solution to that, you can join them and be saved.
See, the question you pose only truly hits at the hearts of the moderates, those that tend to believe in a loving God that wants ALL to be saved, as opposed to an "OT God" that is OK with wiping out unbelievers and those with little faith.
You say the same "shift" the responsibility from God on to the "victims", well, one can ask where it was that you got the idea that it was God's responsibility to begin with?
lovelylil,
Yes you are crystal clear, "I think I was clear on my position, lots of suffering is our own faul"
you blame the victims. God has no responsibility. A worm causing people to go blind is not "unforseen occurances" it is the natural outcome of your God's creative work. Since he is all knowing he knew that would be the outtcome and did it anyway.
In the meantime, yes we have to endure suffering for many reasons. The answers are in the bible
That's great. Unfortunately for most of the victims of river blindness they live in areas where christianity is not really established, so I doubt that these victims would be looking for answers in the bible that they don't have because there are few if any bibles, what bibles there might be are not in their languages, and oh, now they are blind so they cannot read the freaking bible anyway. Lot of comfort that is.
You are still twisting everything I am saying.
I didnt' twist anything you said, I quoted you word for word.
PSacramento said "You are posing a question that is a "question for the ages", did you expect an answer to sowething that has been asked since the beginning of "religion"?"
I did not pose the question, I believe that minimus started this thread. I only added a clearcut example of innocent victims suffering due to god's creative works (if one believes in creation) where god could easily end the suffering but chooses not to do so. I added this example to force the religionists to stop saying things like "it is man's fault because of their inability to govern themselves", or "the people are evil and that is why they are suffering", or "god cannot take action now because the universal sovereignty issue is at stake and men are in control of the planet".
The example I gave cannot be explained away with those excuses.
So we are left with a situation that God directly caused, that God could correct if he chose to, but he fails to do so, and millions of people suffer greatly and needlessly.
So, as a non-Christian I am left to believe that god is either evil, retarded, doesn't care, or is powerless.
So far none of the religionists has said anything that even comes close to refuting that conclusion.
In all fairness to both sides of this dogmatic aisle: Minimus asked this: If God Truly Cared About People Wouldn't He DO SOMETHING By Now?
The Christians [notice that it is not the Zen Buddhists or any other spiritual group - which may be quite revealing on it's own merit] have stated that God has done 'something'. It does seem that what he has done [according to them], is to have His followers put a bandage on here and there, and it seems inadequate to most of us.
But, if these Christians could only separate the 'works' they perform from God, that would be interesting. But I fear they cannot - though there is no clear proof that God is working through them either, is there?
Jeff
Matt Dawg got hit in the head and stumbled to the keyboardand managed to type out:
"The reason for suffering may be inscrutable but that does not mean it is gratuitous. Frankly, if God were indeed doing "nothing" this world would be in far worse shape than it is. And there would be far more suffering. To catagorically state that God is doing nothing or that there is no higher reason for something one would have to be God. Again, limiting a transcnending God to the here and now only hinders ones' ability to understand."
I did not categorically state that God is doing nothing for every example that could be given. What I did say is that in the example of the river blindness disease, a problem which God directly caused (if you believe in creation) God has done nothing.
The religionists claim to know god, I am asking them for what the reasons might be.
To be frank Matt, most of what you say is complete jibberish, you string together complex sounding ideas to impress.
This kind of 'we can't understand anything" philosophizing is a complete waste of time and shows that your agenda is to impress with big words but not to actually discuss the issue that has been posed.
So we are left with a situation that God directly caused, that God could correct if he chose to, but he fails to do so, and millions of people suffer greatly and needlessly.
So, as a non-Christian I am left to believe that god is either evil, retarded, doesn't care, or is powerless.
So far none of the religionists has said anything that even comes close to refuting that conclusion.
You are certainly entitiled to view God in all those ways and one may argue that, based on how you view things you would be 100% correct.
Thing is, you MAY be viewing it the wrong way because you are viewing based on what YOU think God shoudl do.
Not saying that you are wrong to view it that way, just that it doesn't make your way of viewing things right.
Though ultimately you may indeed be right.
Perhaps God is a cruel or perhaps he just doesn't care about us, much like most of us don't care about ants or how some don't even care about their own children.
Perhaps he is indeed like that.
Or perhaps he is indeed cruel and evil.
Well, to be honest, if I only had those choices ( Evil, uncaring, non-existent), I would hope that God doesn't exist.
