by digderidoo 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
Maybe, just maybe the people who wrote the book of Daniel "took" the word that Jeremiah used for "fulfilled" and "completed" ("male") and then reapplied it to suit their own ends. Just the way they got Gabriel to reapply the 70 years to become 70 heptads.
Doug
Thanks Ann.
JCanon, i have asked about Daniel 9:2, not about Josephus....if you have something to say on the matter stick to Daniel, rather than your own Messianic agenda.
Pau
OH, is that how it works? Decide what you don't want to hear or consider so you can come to your own conclusion?
Be my guest. Josephus 11.1.1 pertains to the 70 years, so it's unavoidable. If you can't stand criticism, then don't bring up the topic.
If you want to preach false doctrine, though, you have to accept the criticism. That's how it works. This is a discussion board, not a pulpit.
LS
Sorry, Doug, but thinking the Bible needs to be adjusted because your personal misinterpretation doesn't work out isn't how it works.
You have to harmonize everything so that it all makes sense.
Now here is a technical point missed by many.
Daniel 6v28
" 28 And as for this Daniel, he prospered in the kingdom of Da·ri´us and in the kingdom of Cyrus the Persian."
The Bible clearly places Darius the Mede on the throne immediately after Babylon falls. It also clearly separates the rule of Darius the Mede from that of Cyrus the Persian, placing the rule of Darius first.
Now this rulership over Babylon first by the Medes when the empire was divided between the Medes and the Persians, and then taken over by the Persian Royalty is represented in the prophecy about this world power. The Medo-Persian empire is described as a ram with two horns...
Daniel 8v3 " And the two horns were tall, but the one was taller than the other, and the taller was the one that came up afterward. "
Meaning?
Meaning that when Cyrus became king over Babylon he became king over the entire Medo-Persian empire. His family became the only "royal" family and all the other former kings took up the title of "governor." Thus the latter Medo-Perisan Empire was a united empire under the Persians.
Thus it is very critical that the 70 years ends when the "royalty of Persia", not the "royalty of the Medes" begin to rule.
2 Chronicles 36v 20 "Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."
Thus only after a 6-year rule by Darius the Mede while the Jews were still in exile did Cyrus become king and then release the Jews, ending 70 years of "servitude" by those who were last deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar.
There is nothing wrong with the Bible. But it is interesting that Doug will have the audacity to suggest that the Bible represents a confused or revised history but the thought that the pagans would revise their chronology seems sacriligious. The pagan texts are holy and the Bible is profane all of a sudden? Oh no. Just the opposite. So glad I did my own research!!
LS
JCanon, i have asked about Daniel 9:2, not about Josephus....if you have something to say on the matter stick to Daniel, rather than your own Messianic agenda.
Okay. Here's the context of Daniel 9v2 in the contest of the 1st of Daniel.
Daniel would rule for 6 full years before Cyrus comes to the throne. The 70 years of servitude clearly ends the Babylonian rule, coinciding with the release of the Jews. The Jews were not released until Cyrus the PERSIAN came to the throne. The "royalty of Persia" ends the Babylonian empire.
When Darius the Mede took over, he entered the city without battle and just took over from his cousin, Belshazzar. You see, Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar as well via a state marriage between his father and the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar II. Even so, Nabonidus was still at-large and the official king of Babylon. Even Belshazzar was only #2 in the kingdom, offering Daniel the #3 place, which is the most he could do since he was only #2 and Nabonidus was #1. So it wasn't until Cyrus began his rule at which time he imprisoned Nabonidus that the Babylonian empire actually ended. Nabonidus was still the official king of Babylon and since Darius the Mede was a Babylonian king as well, the Babylonian empire continued until Cyrus the PERSIAN, that is, the "royalty of Persia" began to rule as 2 Chronicles says.
So Daniel's understanding in the 1st of Darius the Mede has absolutely nothing to do with the 70 years in terms of history. He just realized that the 70 years would soon end, which it did, in six years.
See? Nothing about any messiah. How's that?
LS
Lars,
I fully understand your difficulty. The simple fact is that the Jews had to keep copying their scrolls because of the nature of the base material. It had a finite life. And in copying the material, the later redactors were quite prepared to amend the texts to suit their current understandings; they also added comments that later editors incorporated into the text.
The Bible is a collection of human books, where each was written by people for their own immediate community. It is important to know when a book was written, and if possible to determine their motives, and likewise with subsequent editors. Given that it is an impossible task to unscramble the omelet, caution must be exercised when drawing conclusions.
God did not write the books of the Bible; these writers were not manifestations of the divine. Only God is sacred, books are not sacred. Only God is to be worshiped and adored; not a collection of books.
That alterations were made by the Jews is well known, with plenty of evidence available. One need only look at the LXX and MT variants at Jeremiah.
Also, the manner in which the Jews treated their history is also well known, as is the reason for their actions.
The clay tablets - no, not sacred - lay in the ground untouched. So they provide an accurate record of what that group thought at the time they prepared a tablet. With so many thousands of these untouched tablets available, it is possible to recreate their contemporary scenes.
I can fully understand why these facts are uncomfortable for you.
Doug
digderrido
Post 1552
Paul
Like Daniel who wrote that famous reference in Daniel 9:2 to Jeremiah's prophecies concerning the devastation of Jerusalem and Judah for seventy years in Jeremiah 25: 9-11 and 29:10 you have truly used discernment. Apostates such as Alan Fuerbacher and Carl Jonsson have not shown that same discernment but have peddled the false notion that Daniel's reference only applied to Jeremiah 29:10 where it is further claimed that Daniel was simply referring to the desolations of Jerusalem would only end when the seventy years for Babylon has ceased. Such a mistaken view is simply promoted to support the false dates of 586/587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem according to Neo-Babylonian chronology.
Therefore on the basis of Daniel 9:2 which provides an additional proof of the fact that the seventy years was a period not of Babylonian domination but rather of a fixed historic period of desolation-servitude-exile provides clear and overwhelming evidence in support of 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem. A clear and accurate understanding of the seventy years is the only reliable method of calculating the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah and not the listing of regnal years for the Neo-Babylonian period which clearly presents a twenty years gap between secular and biblical chronology.
scholar JW
I guess the WTS did not know what they were talking about when they printed the Vol. 1 Isaiah's Prophecy. Page 253, paragraph 21, states "the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia's greatest domination. Different Nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble." tHE WTS SAYS kING NEB. 1ST YEAR WAS 624, The Bible says it was in King Neb. 19th year when Jerusalem was desolated. (2Kings 25:8-9) (Jeremiaha 52:11-12) You can not get 607 using 624. 18 years from 624=606. So Jerualem did not lay desolated for 70 years and you can't use 607 for 1914. History and the Bible agree. Babylon fell in 539 add 70 years =609 for the start of Babylon's world power. Simple if you want the truth.
Alwayshere
Post 726
Your facts are all over the place and shows that you do not understand chronology nor what the WTS has written on the subject. The comment in the Isaiah commentary, Vol.1, p.253 refers to Tyre's period of domination by Babyllon for a period of seventy years. This has no direct bearing on the interpretation of Jeremiah's seventy years prophecy directed to Judah. The only direct implication is one of context wherein Judah along with other nations were to serve Babylon for seventy years and in respect of Judah this was a period of servitude-exile-desolation from the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return.
The respective reganal years of Nebuchadnezzer is simply explained by the simple fact that Nebuchadnezzer had an accession year followed by his regnal year which accommodates the reference to his 18th and 19th year. This means that there is no problem with his first year or acc. year being counted from 624 BCE and his 18th regnal year ending in 607 BCE. Please consult Insight On the Scriptures, Vol.2. p.481 for a more detailed explanation of the matter.
Your use of 609 BCE for the beginning of the 70 years is bogus for the simple reason that nothing of historic significance happened in that year that would serve as a time marker for the beginning of that most momentous event in Jewish history, the seventy years.
scholar JW
I can fully understand why these facts are uncomfortable for you.
Doug
They are not uncomfortable for me. One reason, particularly as regards chronology, is because there were safeguards set up. Ever wonder why there are four gospels which show slight differences? Ever wonder why the historical aspects of the Jews are in duplicate, i.e. Kings and Chronicles.
It's a built in safety against revisionism. It poses a complex history that is too complex to easily revise. The WTS going it on their own, never did figure out the formula for coordinating the co-rulerships during the Divided Kingdom Period. But clearly the coplexity was deliberate. The gospels, likewise, show deliberate efforts to confuse and hide things.
So even if some details are noticeably changed it doesn't affect the critical and the secretive, which is preserved for the elect to understand in the end times. I think some of the changes were deliberate as well, to get us to look at things in a different way or to consider more than one fulfillment.
I've come to the conclusion that the entire understanding and mysteries of Scripture are not meant for everyone.
Errors are possibly meant to throw off the shallow and non-believing, but they don't bother the chosen.
LS
SCHOLAR
1. Josephus is quoted by the WTS regarding the 70 years and he begins the 70 years not with the fall of Jerusalem but with the "last deportation", year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. Thus the 70 years are from year 23 to the 1st of Cyrus. The WTS is mistaken.
2. Read Zechariah 1 where you see 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem ("denunciation") you are in the 2nd year of Darius the Mede. This confirms that Darius the Mede ruled for 6 full years before Cyrus came to rule at Babylon. Thus the 70 years of "servitude" and "desolation" of the land could not begin until the people were removed.
3. Acknowledge that Gedaliah was killed in year 20. We know this because there is a 2-year gap between the mourning in the 7th month for Gedaliah and the fall of Jerusalem. 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem ends in year 2 of Darius the Mede, but the mourning for Gedaliah in the 7th month ends 70 years in year 4 of Darius the Mede. Meaning? Meaning he was killed in year 20 and began to be mourned the following year. So the WTS is in error in this regard.
4. Realize that Jehovah has cast the WTS into spiritual darkness. Thus they did not understand the "70 weeks" prophecy about the world going forth to rebuild Jerusalem is a reference to the 1st of Cyrus. They begin the 70 weeks in the 20th of Artaxerxes in relation to the rebuilding of the walls, even though the temple was rebuilt already. Did the Jews build a brand new temple and no wall? The WTS suggests Jehovah provided his "invisible protection" in order to claim the walls were not rebuilt as part of the city until the 20th of Artaxerxes. How can I believe that? You can't. It's ridiculous. Thus the 1st of Cyrus does begin in 455 BCE.
Therefore, though you criticize AlanF and Jonsson for holding onto pagan, secular dates and dismiss them thinking the Bible supports 607 BCE, the fact is, the WTS itself uses 539 BCE, a secular date, as a "pivotal date" for coming up with 607 BCE and thus 1914. But the Bible does not support the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. It dates the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE. The Persians revised their history, which is a factor you must accept if you dismiss every date except 539 BCE, but in fact, 539 BCE is a bogus date as well. So you are defending the WTS' decision to support secular chronology. 607 BCE is just a variation of the 539 BCE false dating.
Now it is great that you point out the ridiculousness of AlanF and COJ, but you have to examine yourself and the WTS.
Now here's your KEY SCRIPTURE! Ezra 6 verses 14, 15. These limit the rule of Darius I to just six years, which you can confirm by the archaeology at Persepolis. Artaxerxes is the second name for Xerxes! Aratxerxes is buried after Darius I at Naqshi-Rustam. Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king.
Now you are used to dismissing secular history as false, so finish the job! Follow the Bible. Realize the truth. 539 BCE is just as wrong as 587 BCE and thus 607 BCE.
Please comment on the above, I'd like to know what you think the WTS has to defend this.
Thanks.
LS
