How can a JW say that?

by TD 26 Replies latest jw friends

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  blondie

  A WARNING WORK

  *** w01 2/15 p. 22 par. 17 Seek Jehovah Before the Day of His Anger ***Jehovah considerately warned his ancient people regarding the action he was about to take. He sent his servants the prophets—Zephaniah and Jeremiah, among others—to urge the people to repent. Yes, "Jehovah . . . would do no unrighteousness. Morning by morning he kept giving his own judicial decision. At daylight it did not prove lacking." What was the response? "But the unrighteous one was knowing no shame," said Zephaniah. (Zephaniah 3:5) A similar warning is being sounded at this time. If you are a publisher of the good news, you are having a share in this warning work. Keep on declaring the good news without letup! Whether the people listen or not, your ministry is a success from God’s standpoint as long as you are carrying it out faithfully; you have no need for shame as you do God’s work with zeal.

  *** w80 1/1 pp. 15-16 par. 10 Spurred On by Our "Living Hope" ***Jesus was referring to his harvesting of people, those who had been "skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd," and he set the pattern for this harvest work as he toured the cities and villages, teaching and preaching concerning the hope of the Kingdom. It was also a warning work, for Jesus, in sending out his 12 disciples, instructed them: "Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city."—Matt. 9:35–10:15.

  *** km 2/00 p. 3 par. 4 Preaching the Good News With Strong Conviction ***Though we may feel that spreading the good news has little effect in some lands in view of the witness already given, the warning work must continue.—Ezek. 33:7-9.
• 

  sd-7

  The capacity for critical reasoning is limited amongst true believers. I was a born-in, and I recognized that certain elements of our belief system were questionable even as a teenager, but I ignored such thoughts, believing them to be irrelevant. I always found it curious that 'the truth' required bizarre time calculations despite the fact that 'no one knows the day or the hour'. That, and the fact that most people 'in the truth' had a hard time explaining these doctrines (ie. 1914) which are supposedly at the core of our belief system. Truth shouldn't be that hard.

  The main factor here is, as is common in similar groups (ie. cults), alternative points of view do not exist. They are not tolerated. Dissent with the status quo is seen as disrespectful to God himself. In an environment like that, facts do not matter. Contradictions can be minimized, excused, ignored. The bottom line is, unquestioning faith is at the core of JW belief. Not faith in any particular doctrine save one: the "faithful slave" is "God's organization", "God's sole channel of communication with mankind". That faith enables JWs to believe anything, even vastly contradictory or unscriptural ideas without much serious thought. Every event is experienced as something that reinforces faith in the leadership, the Governing Body.

  In short, to paraphrase George Orwell, they live in an endless present where the Governing Body (which refers to itself generally as 'the faithful and discreet slave') is always right.

  SD-7
• 

  darth frosty

  Good post!
• 

  Earnest

  Interesting observations, TD. I had never quite thought of it that way.

  With the one single, isolated and relatively rare example of the heavenly calling, there are no spiritual experiences in the Witness religion either. Subjective experiences have no place in a courtroom environment.

  I would argue that the heavenly calling itself is not a spiritual experience in the sense that it is subjective. Most of those who have the heavenly calling had it when the majority of Witnesses (or Bible Students) held that as their hope. It has certainly not been conveyed to me as an emotional experience, simply just as something they had never questioned.

  What was the basis for expecting others to believe that it was the truth? Were they supposed to believe it simply because you did? Or were they supposed to believe it because the facts when objectively examined overwhelmingly supported that conclusion to the point where only a dishonest person would deny it?

  I wouldn't go quite so far as to accuse a person of dishonesty but certainly held that the facts when objectively examined overwhelmingly supported the conclusion it was the truth. I would expect the average person to be able to prove that for themselves.

  For JW's, is the belief in the imminence of Armageddon primarily a "Proof-based" or a "Faith-based" proposition? In other words, is it primarily an unvarnished assertion that one accepts on that basis or does it rest on scriptural proof-texts and time calculations? The reason I ask is because my impression from JW literature might be very different from reality.

  Another excellent question. It is a proof-based proposition. And this can be clearly seen in the time calculations and the importance that the xJW community place on proving that these are wrong.

  On what basis is the "Householder" at the door expected to accept this proposition? Does the JW in effect say, "Armageddon is coming soon because we say it is" or do they present this conclusion as the end point of a logical argument?

  The conclusion should be the end point of a logical argument. If you think of the Theocratic Ministry School the points to work on revolve around proving a point or convincing a person, never about a personal expression of faith. In fact the JW definition of faith is the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

  However, the contradiction that you highlight is justified inasmuch as once you have proved to yourself that JWs are the spiritual nation of Israel God is using at this time then it is justifiable to accept interpretation of scripture, new light etc. on faith alone.
• 

  DaCheech

  good one, i agree 199%
• 

  Farkel

  TD,

  Are you serious?

  After a few years in the organization, most JWs only have 4 or 5 working brain cells left! How could they POSSIBLY have the ability to use logic, reason and common sense like you've used? How could they possibly even UNDERSTAND what you have written?

  Farkel
• 

  TD

  Farkel!

  How could they possibly even UNDERSTAND what you have written?

  I know, I know...They wouldn't....But then I wouldn't try to explain it the same way to an active JW.

  Here where I live there's a certain amount of rivalry between Mormons and JW's. When a JW calls on a Mormon house, one of the favorite questions put to the JW is, "By what authority have you come to my door?"

  No matter what answer the JW gives, the Mormon is going to keep rephrasing the same basic question. The average JW will begin by quoting Matthew 24:14, 28:19 or something similar, but it won't satisfy the Mormon. They'll say, "I believe Jesus gave his disciples the authority to preach. When and how did Jesus bestow that authority upon you and your church?"

  This line of questioning revolves around one of the biggest differences between the JW's and the Mormons. Individual Mormons all believe they've experienced a spiritual event of some sort at or around the time of their conversion or coming of age. These can range from weird coincidences to dreams, to voices on up to an actual visitation of an angel, and it confirms to the Mormon that they have found the true faith. This is what allegedly convinced Joseph Smith and this is what convinces Mormons today.

  If a JW doesn't understand where the conversation is headed, he or she will end up admitting that the sole basis of their ministry is nothing more than evidence and argumentation. (The Truth in JW speak.) This is what convinced C. T. Russell, this is what convinced each and every JW today, and this is what JW's hope will convince others. No JW is going to lay their hands on a householder's head and pray that God reveal the true church in some tangible fashion.

  I obviously don't believe any of this myself, but it is one way to explain it in terms a JW will understand. Spiritually, JW's are like the guy at the party who thinks the way to meet girls is to discuss the latest issue of Popular Mechanics.

  Earnest:

  However, the contradiction that you highlight is justified inasmuch as once you have proved to yourself that JWs are the spiritual nation of Israel God is using at this time then it is justifiable to accept interpretation of scripture, new light etc. on faith alone.

  I understand and agree. Believing JW's have considerable faith in their organization in a number of ways.

  The contradiction as I see it doesn't occur until one tries to integrate the idea that people are judged by God based on their response to the JW ministry. A JW who has proved to their own satisfaction that he or she has found the truth can't reasonably expect me or anyone else to accept that idea simply because they do.

  And if I challenge their proof, a JW has no basis falling back upon a faith based explanation if they truly believe that only JW's will survive Armageddon. As you point out, JW's accept things on faith only after they have been convinced that they are the spiritual nation of Israel, etc.

  Even those JW's who view the ministry primarily as a warning usually attribute a certain amount of honesty and fair play, not to mention compassion to their God and undestand that this type of warning has to be credible. (Although there's no shortage of grumpy misanthropes in the JW religion who don't care.)