Calling all Americans!!!

by LucyA 36 Replies latest jw friends

AllTimeJeff

This initial post started out about the outcry by some over the healthcare debate here in the USA. I am firmly on the size of universal health care, and I don't really give a damn about labels or what you want to call it.
The thread has taken a turn about threats to our democracy. My wife and I were talking about this today. The threat of Islam is balanced by their (middle eastern OPEC countries) needs for our $$ and demand for their oil. It is the one chip that the West has given to placate the "moderate" (I use that term loosely) elements of the Muslim world. I maintain that in spite of the rhetoric, most middle eastern countries are not ape on invading Europe. They know damn well they won't be welcomed in the US. (frankly, they aren't) They also know that they will get their ass kicked. Bombing a building will get you invaded. If they get a nuke and try to use it? I pity them, they will blow up the goddam desert. And these "moderate" muslim leaders know this.
These are complex issues, and the answers aren't found in the bullshit coming from either the GOP or Dems. Both sides talk like they are talking to 2nd graders, and the dumbing down of the voting populace in general is worrisome. In additioin, many kids today don't give a rats ass about politics or social studies, trying to understand the politics and culture of different countries, all because they are trying to figure out if Jay-Z and Beyonce will ever have a kid, or if Brittney Spears will rent them one out.... (I jest, but not by much) So I do agree with you Farkel about that.
I do worry about the Muslim influx in Europe. This isn't a matter of immigrants wishing to worship as they did in their home. There is a growing vocal element who move to these countries yet insist that everyone respect THEIR culture, while they call for the overthrow of their adopted home? Yes, they are a minority, but does anyone not want to take these yahoos seriously?
I dont' have an answer, and my wife and I discussed this for over an hour today. But idealism that we can ignore them or oppression of muslims is not the answer. Not that I have confidence that a reasonable, well thought out policy is forthcoming. That would be a miracle. It will probably get worse before it gets better.
Farkel

ATJ,
: The threat of Islam is balanced by their (middle eastern OPEC countries) needs for our $$ and demand for their oil.
Better rethink that one. China and India will buy all the oil we won't buy. If we cut the Arabs off from our dollars, it wouldn't hurt them like you think. Besides that, our dollars are getting more worthless to China every day. If they started demanding hard currency today (i.e. gold) as payment for our debt to them, it would sink us. If China, et.al. come up with a new International Currency, this Country will fold.
The main way I think we can survive energy-wise is to utilize existing energy sources and totally wean ourselves from the Arabs. If we can do this while China and India keeps buying oil from the Arabs, we will be in a good position when the oil finally runs out. And it will run out.
We have a nearly one hundred year supply of natural gas right on our soil, and Canada has another 80 year supply. It is only one of many alternatives to look at.
But, being the pessimist that I am, the USA will only do that once a super crisis emerges. As Winston Churchill so accurately stated, "The United States can always be counted on to do the right thing, once all other alternatives have been exhausted."
Farkel
restrangled

Amen Farkel, you've got that right.
The only problem we face, is that as a nation, we are trying to defy their religion. In all of history, no one has ever won. We, as a nation are in the middle of that now. Once again repeating history.
My son has a friend who is deep into this fight as a very sophisticated military person. He has mentioned that despite our absolute dominance, and unfair military advantage in Afghanistan.... especially at night....(the details I will not go into)...It is person by person, tribe, by tribe fight among thousands upon thousands of Afghanistan's in the middle of desert conditions to infinity.
I was told things that should be not be known by civilians, but I will tell you this....we will not make permanent head way.
Religious fanatics cannot be reasoned with....haven't we learned this lesson ourselves as XJWs?
r
AllTimeJeff

Better rethink that one. China and India will buy all the oil we won't buy. If we cut the Arabs off from our dollars, it wouldn't hurt them like you think.
Thats true, except for the lack of military capability they bring. In addition, those American dollars, even now, represent more value then Chinese and Indian currency. I know China is trying to replace the dollar as the main currency to use in transactions like oil, etc, but thats only because they have so much of our paper money, they see an opportunity. I HOPE no administratioin, GOP or Dem, indulges that bullshit for one second. The only way cutting off the Arabs from our dollars would hurt is if the dollar were no longer the main world currency. At that point, some destabilization could take place, absolutely. But that would have to happen first. Until then, the Arabs are still VERY dependent on us.
My point is militarily, the only way that the muslim world could wage jihad against the West was with a complicit China as a military partner. (maybe Russia?) What would China get out of it, cheap(er) oil? Does China have imperialistic ambition? Their history would suggest not, that they are insular. Russia might be more on that, and that too needs to have 2 eyes kept on it.
I think the greater threat from muslims is in Europe. I do think the EU will have to come down harshly on these muslims. I am not saying I potentially agree with that, but I do see it happening.
AllTimeJeff

Hey, you added to your post after I responded. Now I look even more retarded....
It appears you and I agree that China's demand for a new world currency cannot be allowed to happen for national security reasons. We simply cannot compromise at all on that.
But, being the pessimist that I am, the USA will only do that once a super crisis emerges. As Winston Churchill so accurately stated, "The United States can always be counted on to do the right thing, once all other alternatives have been exhausted."
Yup. What really hurts our speed at the moment is the idiotic gridlock (aka: the gridlock of idiots in Congress) that bogs down meaningful policy. Energy independence is at once a Democratic initiative, and one of the many things that the party of NO (Repubs) are taking a piss on.
No one in Congress can seem to look past the 2 year election cycles. It's really hurting us. And lets not pretend that the great recession hasn't hurt us either. It's all connected at this point. We have to balance printing $$ temporarily while keeping China at bay, and somehow, be vigilant against middle eastern terrorists.
I am starting to give myself a headache over this....
Nathan Natas

AllTimeJeff stated, "I maintain that in spite of the rhetoric, most middle eastern countries are not ape on invading Europe..."
The silent invasion is immigration. Look at the muslim populations of France and Germany; do you believe that all of them are Catholic or Protestant natives who decided that Islam was better?
They come quietly, they reproduce as rapidly as they possibly can while the more politically correct natives of Fance and Germany are practicing "population control" and abortion. In less than 50 years they have a "democratic majority" and vote in Sharia law. At that point Europeans are screwed.
Farkel

Jeff,
:Thats true, except for the lack of military capability they bring.
No Country has EVER conquered China. Ever.
:In addition, those American dollars, even now, represent more value then Chinese and Indian currency.
What? Chinese currency is backed up with hard assets. US currency is backed up with only good will.
:I know China is trying to replace the dollar as the main currency to use in transactions like oil, etc, but thats only because they have so much of our paper money, they see an opportunity.
Well, there you go. If our currency was as strong as you asserted, then China wouldn't have a chance even thinking about replaced it. You just made my argument.
:The only way cutting off the Arabs from our dollars would hurt is if the dollar were no longer the main world currency.
Precisely. And that situation is closer than you think.
:At that point, some destabilization could take place, absolutely. But that would have to happen first. Until then, the Arabs are still VERY dependent on us.
While you make a euphemism by using the term "some destabilization" you must consider that factually speaking, the dollar is essentially worthless. It is a piece of paper with some "good will" still left. That is it. It is backed by nothing except future theft from the treasure of US citizens and it is now robbing the treasure of my grandchildren and your unborn grandchildren to maintain that "good will."
:My point is militarily, the only way that the muslim world could wage jihad against the West
You are mistakenly assuming that the victory of muslims over the West would come from war. You'd better rethink that one, too. They are too smart to attempt a war. That is why they are terrorists.
:was with a complicit China as a military partner. (maybe Russia?) What would China get out of it, cheap(er) oil? Does China have imperialistic ambition? Their history would suggest not, that they are insular. Russia might be more on that, and that too needs to have 2 eyes kept on it.
Yes, China has always been zenophobic. I know my history. But today it is not about conquest of land, it is about conquest by economy. If American is brought down to third world status by another economic superpower, there is no need to conquer any borders. We merely become surrogates to the conquerors.
:I think the greater threat from muslims is in Europe. I do think the EU will have to come down harshly on these muslims. I am not saying I potentially agree with that, but I do see it happening.
Europe needs to send those Muslims to hell or make their lives so miserable in Europe, they either assimilate or go back to living in tents in the Middle East. There is no nice way to say it.
You need to understand the main pinnings of their RELIGION. It is evil personified.
Take off your rose-colored glasses, Jeff. These are not nice people, and this is not a nice diplomatic situation that will be decided over cocktails and noshes.
Farkel
Nathan Natas

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation ;I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.
A German's View on Islam
A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'
We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. ; It ;is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is ;the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the ;fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent ;majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of ;about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists ;managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts--the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just ignores this issue without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and speak up! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Emanuel Tanay, M.D.,
Ann Arbor, MI
AllTimeJeff

No Country has EVER conquered China. Ever.
I meant middle eastern countries. No one SHOULD mess with China militarily. The middle east is different and thats who I was referring to. Sorry for the confusion.
:I know China is trying to replace the dollar as the main currency to use in transactions like oil, etc, but thats only because they have so much of our paper money, they see an opportunity.
Well, there you go. If our currency was as strong as you asserted, then China wouldn't have a chance even thinking about replaced it. You just made my argument.
Farkel, at this moment, I think China overestimates their position on this. I haven't heard anything on this recently, so I am assuming they will wait and see how the US does at paying back some of this debt first before they try their stated strategy of a different world currency. I don't think our currency is strong, but there are other factors at play to prevent this for now. Which means we need to pay this shit off ASAP.
Farkel, my point is simple on the world currency: The US wouldn't let that happen. We can't. If China wants to call our markers, something will be brought up, legit and fair or not, to prevent it.
I will skip to this.... for the sake of time...
You need to understand the main pinnings of their RELIGION. It is evil personified.
Take off your rose-colored glasses, Jeff. These are not nice people, and this is not a nice diplomatic situation that will be decided over cocktails and noshes.
I am rethinking my position on this lately. I agree, its too late for diplomacy in Europe. To some degree, muslims will be marginalized and treated poorly for their own rhetoric (as a group) in the EU at some point. But either action, whether it be what you suggest as making their life hell, or "inaction/diplomacy" that I wish could happen both will have unintended consequences. And believe me, I am not married in this case to diplomacy for the muslim issue in the EU. But we can't let that social situation in Europe effect how we treat the middle eastern muslim countries. Those are related, but seperate issues.
The biggest lesson of how WWII started was the screwing of Germany during the 1920's as punishment for WWI. It allowed their entire economy to collapse, and it turned off people's brains so that a radical could take power and build an army.
The lesson is, screw no one, engage all in the global economy. This recession for the first time has shown that our national security is tied to our economy. It has to be somewhat regulated to keep "bubbles" from happening that caused this. Beyond that, we have to engage the legit muslim world. We also need to restric immigration big time in all the West. We are at full capacity, esp if you are from the middle east. If we were to no longer engage OPEC, they would absolutely run to India (our ally) and China (nobody's ally but their own). We can't afford that to happen, at least not in the next 10 years. If that were to happen, anti western leaders would come to power, and all bets are off at that point.
That is reality, and I don't like it. But it is how it is.
As far as the Muslim religion??? I have read enough of the Koran to know that it is evil. I am very concerned.
And as I say, I am rethinking a lot of my former positions regarding these issues.
Farkel

Jeff,
:I haven't heard anything on this recently, so I am assuming they will wait and see how the US does at paying back some of this debt first before they try their stated strategy of a different world currency.
Just what will they pay it off with? More paper money? That's all they have left, you know. That's all they had in the first place.
Try this little experiment, Jeff:
Go buy some groceries and when it is time to pay, ask the clerk if you can give them a note for your purchase. Watch them laugh at you. Hand them a twenty dollar bill and they will be happy to take it. You just paid them with a "note." (Look on a $20 bill. That is what it is. A "note" is a promise to pay.) Notice the irony. The clerk would NOT accept a "note" from you but would gladly take a $20 "note" from you!
Now, we all know that a "note" is a "promise to pay", yes? It's the same as an IOU. It is a PROMISE to pay something to "redeem" that note, because it is, after all a "note" (i.e. a piece of paper).
Now, take your $20 bill to any US government agency and try to "redeem" it.
"Sir, I have this $20 "note" and I would like to redeem it."
"No problem. Hand it to me."
"Here you go. Here is my note. Please redeem it."
'No problem. I just redeemed it. Here is another $20 note."
There you go. THAT is what our money is worth. It is not "redeemable" for ANYTHING. It is a piece of paper that is as worthless as the paper it is printed on. No gold. No silver. No lead. No tin. No nothing. It is a piece of paper.
It is backed up by nothing. It is vapor. It is a farce. And it will sink this Country.
Farkel

Calling all Americans!!!

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