JW Apologists please tell me where your God was when .....

by wobble 154 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Perry

  The way I see it:

  Evil is a result of free will and will be judged.

  Decay/Death is the result from a disconnect from the Source of Life.

  Apparently God has chosen to protect (at tremendous expense to himself and others) both of the agencies of Free Will and his exclusivity as the Source of Life.

  In our current fallen state, many demand just the opposite, that God remove Free Will/Judgment (from those that they decide it should be removed from), and that God posit his Life Source within them. He hasn't complied so far.

  In Christianity, we give up the right to Free Will (to sin) and thus are reconnected to the Source of Life when we are born again, receiving a new spirit that is incapable of sinning. We are also punished vicariously through Jesus Christ on the cross. This provides a legal justification for IMMORTALITY, which is what God wants to give every man, woman, and child.

  This is a cursed world....lock, stock and barrell. Death reigns here in one form or another, affecting young and old alike. Again, why curse God just when someone we love dies before we do? To be consistent, shouldn't we blame God for all death? If not, then isn't it possible that he is not to blame for any of it?
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Perry - Prove it! Or it all just nonsensical rhetoric and empty faith? No one can prove anything you said.

  If we went back 1000 years and removed the Bible entirely, none of these silly arguments would be made. The circular reliance on an unworthy heap of verbal history/prophecy put to papyrus just ignores reality. There is not a shred of concrete evidence for anything resembling these arguments. You cannot prove that man ever 'fell'. You cannot prove that God is a 'source of life'. You cannot prove that being born again [whatever definition you choose to attach] makes anyone/anything 'incapable of sin'. You cannot prove that Jesus gave anyone 'justification' for Immortality. You cannot prove that the world is 'cursed'.

  What can be proven are the solid historical events shown that God just stood by and let it all happen. THAT is REAL. THAT happened, and not in someones heart or head. It REALLY HAPPENED! People REALLY DIE! You cannot show that anything exists on the other side of that death curtain.

  If God actually exists, then your only provable statement is that the evidence supports that God is absolutely responsible for every death that occurs. Period! If he doesn't exist - then only our mortality, caused by evolution is responsible.

  Jeff
• 

  PSacramento

  You need to go back a lot further than 1000 years Jeff, A LOT further.

  God(s) and Man have gone hand in hand since the first man looked up and wonder what was there.
• 

  Mary

  Again, why curse God just when someone we love dies before we do? To be consistent, shouldn't we blame God for all death? If not, then isn't it possible that he is not to blame for any of it?

  OK, this is how I see it:

  Say I have a 5 year old child. I've told him never to cross the street without me as he could get hit by a car. While he has a vague grasp that crossing the street without me is "bad", his 5 year old brain cannot fully grasp the seriousness of the situation. One day he's out front playing. My next door neighbour comes out and says to my child "your mother's crazy. Nothing bad will happen if you cross the street by yourself. In fact, if you do, there's a big bag of candy waiting for you on the other side!" Now let's say I'm watching from the front porch. I don't tell my neighbour to piss off but rather, I wait to see if my son will remember what I told him and obeys me. As I watch, he toddles towards the road. I see a transport truck coming down the street but I do nothing. I wait to see if my son is going to obey me. He doesn't. He steps out onto the road, gets hit by the truck and dies right in front of me as I sit there and do nothing. My evil neighbour starts laughing his head off.

  So then what? While I feel sadness that my son has died, I rationalize that it was his own fault. After all, I told him not to go on the road and he disobeyed me and paid the price. And as punishment for his disobedience, I'm going to punish the rest of my kids by letting my evil neighbour baby-sit them. Yes, I know he's a rotten bastard, a pedophile, a murderer and every other rotten thing you can imagine, but hey---I'm trying to make a point here. However, I don't want anyone to think I'm a bad parent, so just before I make my kids go over to his place, I'll give them the number 9-11 in case there's an emergency and I'm not available to help out. I tell my kids I love them and then turn them over to the care of a low-life scumbag.

  This is how I compare the God, Satan and Inherited Sin story. To me, there is nothing that can justify a 'loving God' who just sits there and punishes us because our first parents ate a piece of fruit they weren't supposed to. Yes, mankind is responsible for alot of the problems that go on in this world, but for someone who has the power to do something about it, does nothing, lets us suffer on a continual basis while He does squat to Satan, does not deserve my worship.
• 

  Perry

  Jeff,

  If you start cursing and typing foul language like you did last time, I'll simply ignore you. Got it?

  My post wasn't meant to provide proof of God. Only God can provide that by revealing himself to you. This thread assumes his existence. My post was intended to point out the logical inconsistency in assuming God exists, and then by reason of that assumption go on to imply causality on his part with death.... young or old.

  In other words, if a nurse hooks up a life support system to a mature patient and then the patient later excerises his right to pull the plug resulting in decay and death; isn't that his own fault? I believe we inherited this nature to disobey God, even if it means our own demise. None of us want God in our lives according to our flesh. No genuine Christian that I know will testify that they started out wanting anything at all to do with God and the giving up their free will.

  You cannot prove that God is a 'source of life'.

  You assume this by simply positing the word "God" in any of your arguments. Does that make sense to you? I'm not attacking you, or trying to "prove" God's existence here. But, if you are going to use the English language, then unless you have another suggestion, you must stick with common definitions of the words you choose.

  What can be proven are the solid historical events shown that God just stood by and let it all happen.

  So what's the problem? Would you rather God just have annilated Adam and Eve and started over? What about the next pair that exercised their god-given free will.....what then?

  The historical events outlined in the bible over thousands of years show that God planned to die in our place, to take on our sickness, death, and punishment through Jesus. This he purposed from the founding of creation. This was the price he must pay for free moral agents, capable of morality and love. He paid the ultimate price for our choice.

  We should choose wisely.
• 

  Perry

  Mary, with all due respect....there is ZERO comparison to a 5 year old child (with an inherited sin nature to boot), to that of a fully mature man and woman with a non-existent bent on disobedience.
• 

  Mary

  Perry----my understanding (even as a JW), that Adam and Eve would not have been "fully mature" by any stretch of the imagination. They would have had absolutely no concept of sin, of disobedience, of death-----heck, Genesis tells us that they weren't even aware they were naked before they sinned. In other words: they were child-like. If you rationalize that they were "fully mature" and knew exactly what they were doing when they sinned, then why is it that "their eyes opened" and they only became aware that "they were naked" after they had sinned? And yes there is a comparison to humans being like the 5-year old child, at least from the bible's point of view. Doesn't God always refer to us as his "children"? Doesn't the bible say that "your thoughts are not my thoughts"? Don't we refer to God as our "Father"?

  I think my comparison was a pretty realistic one. Unfortunately, when you look at it in layman's terms, it doesn't seem quite so "loving" that a person who's supposed to be taking care of us, just sits by and does nothing.

  Even if they were "fully mature", would you just stand by and let another human being walk out into traffic when you could save them?
• 

  AK - Jeff

  I find it amusing that Christians are willing to use stories in the Bible to prove that other Gods are false [like Elijah and Baal for instance], but when faced with people saying to them in effect - 'Is your God just on the privy?' they do much like the worshippers of Baal did - parade around telling us what God will do, has done, might do - but can show us nothing that he actually ever did.

  As to you ignoring me, Perry. Go ahead. It makes my day.

  Jeff
• 

  Perry

  I think my comparison was a pretty realistic one. Unfortunately, when you look at it in layman's terms, it doesn't seem quite so "loving" that a person who's supposed to be taking care of us, just sits by and does nothing.

  Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one Mary. Personally, I think that it would have been more unloving for God to prevent Adam and Eve from doing what they wanted to do.

  Contrary to what the Watchtower teaches, nowhere does the Bible say that the world or the universe was created “perfect.” It says that it was good. It even says that it was very good, but perfect? No. In the same manner, the Bible does not say that Adam and Eve were created “perfect” in the sense that they were impervious to sin. The Bible says that Adam and Eve were without sin. They only knew good. They didn’t judge each other, nor did they judge themselves. They didn't lie to each other. They didn’t know about evil.
  
  Adam and Eve were without sin, but they did possess the potential to sin. They possessed the ability to CHOOSE to obey God and remain in a state of knowing only good in their lives. AND they possessed the ability to CHOOSE to disobey God and to know the difference between good and evil.

  Thanks to them most of us now know the difference.
• 

  Perry

  Jeff,

  they do much like the worshippers of Baal did - parade around telling us what God will do, has done, might do - but can show us nothing that he actually ever did.

  Jeff, I've spoken to you previously about what God has done for me. He restored my ability to love and to trust. He gave me a new family. He made himself known to me. I no longer have to worry about whether or not he exists. I no longer need worry about death, judgment or about getting my needs met. Millions of others will tell you similar testimonies.

  However, it cost me my free will. I never would have gotten to that point where I was so low that I would give that up if it weren't for my JW family, and this JWD board showing me other alternatives to Christianity.

  I owe the Watchtower corporation and the atheists here an incalculable debt.