by cantleave 140 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Second example is good old quantum mechanics: A electron-positron pair is created in the middle of empty space because of zero-point oscilations. What were the cause?
Again, a case of indeterminacy but not acausality. The creation of virtual particles in empty space is not an example of acausality, because empty space itself is the indeterministic cause of the beginning of virtual particles.
BTS
BTS: Just to set something straight, i have been throwing the word 'causality' around in the loose sence because i understood it here as also meaning that 'every effect has a cause'. My QM(/relativity) examples are NOT about a future event causing a past event (in the 'information back in time/ftl' kind of sence).
My QM example is about some events, ie. the creation of virtual particles, not having a 'cause' in the way i understand the word: they just seem to happend. That is, i think the idea of an 'unbroken' cause-event chain is one that needs more investigation and a very good definition of 'cause'.
Bohm, the spacetime vacuum is a thing that causes virtual particles, we just can't determine when or where individual particles will instantiate. At least not yet. The frothing of virtual particles in the vacuum is an effect of the vacuum. By the way, I am enjoying this.
Cheers,
BTS
BTS: My QM example was just about testing the definition of 'cause', to get back on the track: Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on why God does not need to have a cause? (and i agree, much more fun than climate change)
Thermodynamics overload in getting an engineering degree leads me to say that if I could choose only one assumption out of everything we know about our universe, it would be that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is inviolate.
From that assumption I see two paths. The total entropy of the universe is finite, or the total entropy of the universe is infinite.
If entropy is finite, there are several possibilities, from an entropy transfer from a larger system or God/ID, to a one shot wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am heat death.
If entropy is infinite (but still always increasing), the 2nd law is not violated if there were previous or future big bangs ad infinitum (by whatever non-deflationary mechanism, i.e. quantum fluctuation of the vacuum, etc). If entropy is infinite I would put the odds of a God/ID as being very low.
The entropy of the visible universe is finite, and cosmologists lean towards it being finite overall, but there also several hypothesis arguing it may be infinite, so maybe time will tell.
I took a couple of university-level quantum mechanics courses as electives, and I have to say, virtual particles was one of the most intriguing subject we covered. Even more-so than entanglement. It's a bad analogy but it reminds me of the imaginary portion of AC current and voltage. Can't be measured but the effects are real.
If entropy is finite, there are several possibilities, from an entropy transfer from a larger system or God/ID, to a one shot wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am heat death.
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man.
All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.
All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected.
But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships.
A timeless interval was spent in doing that.
And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy.
But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too.
For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program.
The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done.
And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"
And there was light----
I can answer this debate once and for all !
Razziel: Just out of curiosity, have you read Jaynes 'Probability Theory', especially the chapters where he derive thermodynamics from a baysian viewpoint?
No I haven't. Just read the brief description of bayesian probability on wikipedia. At a brief glance it looks useful and similar to iterative techniques used in a lot of fields. It strikes me as a possibly quick way of narrowing down likely solutions to systems of partial differential equations.
MissingLink:
Sylvia, are you saying that "the devil" is responsible for our universe not being "like a finely tuned clock" that we were taught to believe it is?
Sylvia:
I'm saying I believe just that; the Evil One is out to wreak havoc on God's creation
That makes NO sense at all. You're saying "the devil" is responsible for messing up god's finely tuned universe and crashing galaxies into each other and creating rocks that crash into earth. Those galaxies colliding that we're seeing happened MILLIONS of years ago. It's not something "the devil" could have done when he confronted god 6 thousand years ago and had a hissy fit pushing galaxies around. Put on your thinking cap woman.
And if "the devil" DID push the galaxies around like that millions of years ago - is your god such a pussy that he couldn't repair the damage?
