by TTWSYF 49 Replies latest watchtower bible
I agree that the brochure is horrible......
However please keep in mind that the Athanasius/Arius dispute has raged on since 325 ....
Both sides are pretty certain of their interpretations but I think most acknowledge being 'right' on this matter is not the basis for salvation and surely Grace will cover the one in err as the truth of the relationship becomes known to them via meeting with our Savior.
What I have on the subject of the JWs leaders vs. the mainstream views is on
pp.7-10 at the next link. Pages 8 and 9 offer a lot of quotes from the JWs
leaders' brochure and also show how they quote mine and otherwise misrepresent
research sources as supportive that aren't.
http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn8.htm
You'll find that's standard for the JWs leaders when it comes to them claiming
that their special 12 or so rules, meant to define them as the only rule makers
of a literal 144,000, are supported by the best evidence and reasoning. Equally
unsurprisingly, they apply their harsh shunning rules to persistent disagreement
with any of those rules--someone that's on to them won't be around long to tell
the other customers what they found.
Due to that creating pressure for followers to not want to be shunned by their
friends and family, an otherwise bright friendly JWs member once argued for
about 20 min. that Tertullian's Apology 21, which I showed him a Xerox for,
showed Tertullian taught a created Jesus as the JWs leaders' brochure indicated.
I'm an ex-'born-in RC' if there is such an expression. One of the things taught to me in the years and years of parochial school and catechism, that never made the damnedest bit of sense to me, was the trinity. In my opinion, it's dumb. But whether you believe in the trinity or not, the only difference is where you draw the line between the logical and what you have to have 'faith' in to accept. Trinity requires more faith and less logic earlier on in the though process ... but the transition from one to the other still occurs if you don't beleive in it, just a bit farther down in the thinking.
Hi Leec. thanks for your reply. Recall the 1st question raised is on this thread was 'has anyone researched the claims in the "should you believe" brochure'?
That said, I too was raised as a catholic with 10 years in parochial schools and I will admit that I believed what I was taught, but did not understand it. I actually didn't even care one way or another regarding it's truth or lack there of. I was not a good catholic. I did nothing more than the minimum that most catholics do.
I was blessed beyond measure [or at least much more than I deserved] . It started with my sister's trip to Medjugorje. That is a whole different story, but long story short, as a result of her trip, I emersed myself into serious studies in scripture [from legitamate collegiate academic sources. ]
How does one reconcile all scripture? Answer=Through true studies.
My brother's favorite scriptural quote against Christ as God or the trinity is from Deut6:4 '[known as the Jewish Shema'] "Hear, O Israel:The Lord our God is one Lord".
such evidence is crippling to a catholic, isn't it?
It was to me. And for many years it caused me to leave my faith, I was ignorant to the why.
I am no scholar in languages, but I do have a computer and the freedon to research what is true and false.
Truth- There are 2 words for one in Hebrew. There is 'yachid' meaning only one, something that is solitary.
Then there is the word 'echad' which usaully suggests a synergy of more than one. For example 'day and night became one day', husband and wife became one flesh'.
It is the word echad which discribes Jehovah God without exception. Even 'we made man in our image, according to our likeness'.
It is interesting to note that Jehovah God is always referenced in the plural [like Michael is always referenced in the singular]. I do not mean to sound smug if it appears like that:), but I have to ask ' where do you draw the line on what is accepted as truth in the bible and what is disregarded as lies or false teachings?
Yes, I possess and I have read for myself all the volumes in the Ante-Nicene Fathers set, and the confusion in doctrine after the 1st century is obvious. It is also plain that several of those church "fathers" were students of Greek Platonic philosophy before becoming Christians. That background may have influenced their Christian beliefs.
What is clear from my own reading is that the earliest church fathers did not believe in the Trinity as later codified at Nicea and afterwards. The word "trias" itself was not used until more than a hundred years after Jesus Christ, and the fully-developed doctrine came even later than that.
Regardless, the Trinity cannot be proved from the Bible itself, nor from the words of Jesus Christ. The Trinity is not implied in the Scriptures, and the doctrine contradicts what the Scriptures do say.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/11/trinity-and-pagan-influence.html
:Should I believe in the Trinity?!
Sure. Put it on your list right under "Tooth Fairy."
Seriously, trying to comprehend the nature of the Creator is like an ant trying to comprehend the nature of an Aircraft Carrier. The Bible gives almost no information about the true nature of the Creator. Perhaps that's a hint it is not something we need to understand. Besides that, even the Trinity is a man-like God concocted by men. First, learn to understand dark matter, dark energy, inflation theory, quantum mechanics, the nature of the speed of light, all of which are a pittance compared to understanding the One who created all that. THEN MAYBE you MIGHT be able to understand a LITTLE BIT about the true nature of the Creator.
Until then, just try to get along with your fellow man and don't worry about the big stuff like that. You only have about 80 years to figure it out, and I guarantee you, you won't!
Farkel
Should you believe in the trinity?
That is a very loaded question.
MUST you?
Nope.
Can you?
There is certainly enough in the bible, when interpreted in a certain way, to justify the Trinity doctrine.
So, should you?
I would have to answer that you SHOULD only if you feel it brings you closer to God and Jesus and the HS.
Salvation is NOT based on the belief of the Trinity for a Christian but based on the faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God, who lived, died and was ressurected and is Our Lord and Saviour.
On a side note, Moshe's post is right on:
It does no harm to believe in the Trinity or not to believe- the problems with JW's and their religion have to do with their isolationism, lack of charity, mistreatment and shunning of ex-members, death from refused medical treatments, avoidance and ridicule of higher education- in short they are just social parasites and generally all around jerks. Catholics have great charities and are known for their generosity towards the needy and love of family. What can JW's feel proud about?
First, learn to understand dark matter, dark energy, inflation theory, quantum mechanics, the nature of the speed of light, all of which are a pittance compared to understanding the One who created all that. THEN MAYBE you MIGHT be able to understand a LITTLE BIT about the true nature of the Creator.
Until then, just try to get along with your fellow man and don't worry about the big stuff like that. You only have about 80 years to figure it out, and I guarantee you, you won't!
Farkel?
Sometimes I love you, sometimes I don't.
The above certainly brings out the former.
Bravo!
This should be entered into the annals for post of the year.
Sylvia
The "Trinity" brochure is full of very selective quotes, many which are taken out of context, as the link below can show you. And I don't even believe in the Trinity myself:
http://home.comcast.net/~docbob1/misquotes.htm
BTW, I'd take Farkel's advice......People have been debating it for 2,000 years----I doubt it's going to get resolved any time soon.
I doubt God is going to hold it against anyone for not getting His nature down on paper...
