Thanks, Perry.
We had a record snowfall here in Ft.Worth on Friday and electricity is out in large areas as well.
I had to go to a functioning Starbucks to type this.
I'll be posting on this again in the next few days. Just a head's up.
The JEHOVAH game (a modern fetish)
by Terry 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Perry
I saw that. We almost jumped in the car to take the kids to see the snow. Good Luck getting around in your car. Be safe.
The bottom line is that the evidence cannot support a 100% carbon copy of the originals (though by Providence there could be). So, if that is someone's standard I'm afraid that the evidence falls below that bar.
On the otherhand, the evidence in no way supports a historical conclusion of unsortable mess from the descent of the vast majority of mss. I believe the evidence supports a very sortable and knowable representation of the originals to the vast majority of those who take the time to sort through the evidence.
As usual, an element of faith is involved. In this particular case, I believe demonstratable probability also falls on the "knowable" side. Still some may reason, if God is so powerful, we should have the originals. To that I say that God's true temple is the habitation of believers. No mater how messy the individual believer, God creates in the midst of the mess....using warts and all to make something somehow acceptable, workable, logical and doable.
I have seen this in my own short walk with God. My biggest fear in turning myself over to God was that I would somehow lose my personality. I had grown rather fond of my personality in many ways (not so in other ways) . God has preserved my personality and yet, at the same time changed me.... grated off the rough edges.
The historical manuscript evidence seems to me to somehow mirror this process. In the midst of the warts that are in the majority mss, the originals prevail.
Blessings to you.
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Terry
On the otherhand, the evidence in no way supports a historical conclusion of unsortable mess from the descent of the vast majority of mss. I believe the evidence supports a very sortable and knowable representation of the originals to the vast majority of those who take the time to sort through the evidence.
Perry, you've asserted something which you need to be true, but, for which there is no provenance existing. That makes the assertion an Ad Hoc foundational argument.
The key issue is one of Provenance:
When it comes to valuable Antiquities, Art, Wine, manuscripts and such Provenance is essential to establish a chain of custody .
Without the proper Provenance a forgery or reproduction can easily be passed off as authentic. Especially if the buyer is eager to own a magnificent original work by a great master.
During the centuries which followed the birth of Christianity there was a wild market for artifacts, holy relics and even body parts of saints.
Constantine's wife dabbled in collecting these things with her most prized object being (purportedly) THE TRUE CROSS.
As naive and improbable as such items now appear to us today, forgers really made a fortune providing these relics by merely asserting them to be authentic.
Provenance often assumes great importance. Documented evidence of provenance for an object can help to establish that it has not been altered and is not a forgeryor reproduction. Knowledge of provenance can help to assign the work to a known artist and a documented history can be of use in helping to prove ownership.
The quality of provenance of an important work of art can make a considerable difference to its selling price in the market; this is affected by the degree of certainty of the provenance, the status of past owners as collectors, and in many cases by the strength of evidence that an object has not been illegally excavated or exported from another country. The provenance of a work of art may be recorded in various forms depending on context or the amount that is known, from a single name to an entry in a full scholarly catalogue several thousand words long.
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Terry
As usual, an element of faith is involved. In this particular case, I believe demonstratable probability also falls on the "knowable" side.
Faithful believers swallowed whatever the church told them to believe. They TRUSTED naively, as you do, Perry.
There were a great many Jesus stories. Different locations; different stories.
The Constantine era solidified the canon to a great extent and put authority behind orthodoxy.
If Almighty God was protecting sacred scripture from pollution, corruption and fraud it would logically follow
this same preserving God would prevent the Catholic church from introducing so many fraudulent teachings as well, would it not?
The worship of Mary, for example, is obvious pagan goddess worship merely christianized.
No, I think it rather obvious what happened. In the same way the teachings of Jesus (whatever they may have been) became polluted and promoted as authentic, so too, the teachings of the church as well.
And what may even be worse, fifteen hundred years the majority of faithful believers lived and died by what they were instructed without the ability to even own or read a so-called Bible!
By the time Martin Luther put his foot down and his theses nailed to the Wittenburg door; christianity was as much of a mess (allowed by the same God) as the state and condition of the Bible.
Surely history is on my side with this, don't you think?
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Perry
Provenance, from the French provenir, "to come from", means the origin, or the source, of something, or the history of the ownership or location of an object, [1] The term was originally mostly used of works of art, but is now used in similar senses in a wide range of fields, including science and computing. Typical uses may cover any artifact found in archaeology or object in paleontology, or some document, such as a manuscript, or a copy of a printed book. In most fields the primary purpose of provenance is to confirm or gather evidence as to the time, place, and if appropriate the person responsible, for the creation, production or discovery of the object, but this will typically be accomplished by tracing the whole history of the object up to the present. Comparative techniques, expert opinions, and the results of various kinds of scientific tests may also be used to these ends, but establishing provenance is essentially a matter of documentation.
Terry,
There IS tons of documentation! We are not talking about a single object. We are talking about multiple documents, from numerous cultures, that represented millions of people, over 3 continents, over a periond of many centuries, THAT ARE ALL IN NEAR 100% AGREEMENT. Surely you could agree that the scope alone makes this an entirely different subject matter than a mere artifact.
My point is that these are living documents, quoted and believed upon by multitudes. Hundreds of lectionaires (sermons) that ARE rooted in specific space and time, providing irrefutable evidence of the early existence of the small disputed texts (count them like on one hand). Even discounting these, no threat to sound doctrine is possible. The reality is that even with the corrupted 1% Alexandrian texts, sound doctrine is distilled quite nicdely by a number of Christian groups. It really is only with the emergence of the WT and Fred Franz with his additional alterations that altered texts start to really become unmanageable for the reader.
And what may even be worse, fifteen hundred years the majority of faithful believers lived and died by what they were instructed without the ability to even own or read a so-called Bible!
Honestly, how can you claim that at this point in our discussion? THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TWO STREAMS OF MANUSCRIPTS. That is what history shows. The Catholic Church did everything possible to make salvation a matter of geography(being born ((infant baptism)) in a "Christian Land") and sacramental as opposed to the life exchange that the NT (New Covenant or New Contract) states and requires .
Over 70 popes in a row persecuted and ordered the death of the indigenous Christians. They confiscated their bibles, songbooks, lectionaries and burned them. All the property was confiscated of that whole family as well. OVER 50 MILLION people were killed for their beliefs. Yet, this most tragic and most dramatic display of faith that the world has ever known is almost never mentioned, has been virtually erased from the world's psyche and even Siminaries don't even instruct about these events for fear of hurting soneone's feelings.
Yet, the fact is that these peoples copied and preserved the word of God in their hearts and on paper until the politically connected reformers rediscovered the fundamental doctrines of Christianity that had ALWAYS been preserved ....Just like Jesus indicated that they would by the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
By the time Martin Luther put his foot down and his theses nailed to the Wittenburg door; christianity was as much of a mess (allowed by the same God) as the state and condition of the Bible.
You are only picking up the story in the sixteenth century Terry. Read a very scholarly book called: The Reformers and their Step Children Then, come back and try and tell me the above.
It really gets down to who are you going to believe? The ones burned at the stake? Or, those who lit the fires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY
Please send me an email if you make it down to San Antonio sometime and I'll buy you lunch. Six of Nine is my old roomate when we were all Witnesses. He's as Atheist as they come and we always manage to have a good time withoug trying to convert each other when we get toghether.
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AK - Jeff
The whole matter is moot if the Bible is not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to have divine origination. It doesn't. It never will. Faith without basis is superstition. Nothing more, nothing less. Period.
Like the ancient Greeks, the Christian God or Christian triune of God is doomed by logic. The so called 'holy' manuscript is flawed and was selected by men who chose to forward a particular theological, political, and economical agenda. Faith without facts is dead. The Greek culture of gods took a while to finally thrash and die - so will the silly Christian ideology. But in time, man has always shown himself capable of accepting 'fact' over 'superstition'. He will do so again. Sometime in the future history books will be filled with information about the dark Christian era, just as it is filled with information about the ancient religions of the Romans and Greeks. Children will laugh at the silly ideas presented in the same way they find humor in the pantheon.
Nice thread Terry. I appreciate your logical, straightforward arguments.
Jeff
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Perry
The whole matter is moot if the Bible is not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to have divine origination. It doesn't. It never will. Faith without basis is superstition. Nothing more, nothing less. Period.
Oh but Jeff there is something far more basic than the written word..... the testimony of millions of people that Jesus is alive. The interaction that believers have with God isn't superstious at all. It is DIRECT CONTACT.
There are posters right here on JWD that communicate with Spirits through occult means. Your natuaralistic world-view is contridicted by untold millions of people including myself.
Jesus is alive.
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Terry
Perry,
I sometimes think the standard Christian view of things is this.
Mankind, like the people in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina, are stranded waiting on aid and God flys over and sees them on the roof waving and holding up signs, but, He can't really do as much as He would like to.
He has some stopgap aid here and there for a few, but, mostly everybody just has to do the best they can to hang on.
Like Federal Aid or the National Guard---Jesus is coming! Hang on! Jesus is coming!
Would that be accurate?
I'll tell you why I say the above.
Jesus arrived and his disciples and Apostles didn't really understand much of anything He said. After all, he spoke in parables and didn't hang around very long. Jesus never instructed any of his followers to write down what he was saying. Neither did Jesus himself write anything down.
He commanded them to preach. That is an oral tradition.
The Jews who believed in a Messianic Jesus watched him die and heard promises that he'd come back and finish the job later. But, that was "Sooner" later, in their belief. They were wrong. He never returned.
Now everybody, Gentile and Jew, really really expected Jesus would return QUICKLY to finish his work.
Jesus did NOT return quickly. I repeat: Jesus never returned!
People such as Jehovah's Witnesses jumped the shark and gave us a Jesus who is back---but, who does nothing!
From the death of Jesus, and later his apostles, the message was passed around. People with different belief systems adopted THEIR VERSION of what they heard. When they believed---(this is important) they believed THEIR VERSION.
As far as I know--and you can correct me if I'm wrong---the ONLY person in the New Testament who was directly instructed to write anything down was John in the "vision" in Revelation.
The oral message spread, certainly. But, Judaism was almost wiped out in 70 a.d. At least it had a huge setback from which, I'd argue, it has never recovered.
This is where we really have a terrible problem for Christians at large today.
Who was shepherding the diverse group of believers?
If you say Jerusalem, well, Jerusalem wasn't instructing Paul what to preach. Jerusalem and Paul were sniffing each other out. Paul had a DIRECT contact (if you believe his vision story) with the Lord and Jerusalem did not.
Everybody had Holy Spirit (or so we are given to understand). But, Holy Spirit didn't stave off what happened to Christianity as far as the ROMANIZING effect of pagan rulership under Constantine.
My point?
If God were running the show through Jesus and the Holy Spirit simply by giving each christian believer a tingling sensation of special contact---it hasn't prevented the corruption of the identity of Christianity with Catholicism.
Splinter groups opposed by an enormous Catholic monolith with the power of Rome behind it doesn't speak well for God's organizational strengths!
If God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus could only barely manage a rag-tag insurgency of martyrs and squabbling heretics it doesn't speak well for THE KINGDOM OF GOD, now does it?
Where in the scriptures is there a command to make a Bible to straighten things out? It was oral tradition and oral teaching and preaching and not the written commands and documentary bastion of carefully preserved orthodoxy which Christianity embraced in the beginning.
This leaves us with a GIANT, GAPING HOLE logic-wise.
1.If God communicates with Christians directly by Holy Spirit--what do you need a bible for?
2.If God communicates with Christianity by Church, then why did the Catholic Church drown out the thousand factions of congregational disunity?
3.If God communicates with Christianity by magisterium, tradition and scripture--then why wasn't the Catholic Church kept pure of pagan corruption and political whoremongering?
4.If God communicates with Christianity by Bible alone---why did the original autograph uncorrupt texts vanish suspiciously into a void only to be replaced over and over and over again by layers of "translation" opinion in which the scribes and copyists shaped the contents to fit pre-conceived ideas?
5.Any word (like "Christian") which can mean anything really means nothing. Christians may agree on general Creed statements---but--they do not embrace one another in the spirit of "that they have love among themselves" as is abundantly demonstrated by sectarian polemic.
The black and white fact of Christianity is that Christians disagree with each other's beliefs about hundreds of issues which tear them apart.
It doesn't seem to matter whether there is a Trinity or not when it comes to the split in the Baptist convention, does it?
What really is the unity in Christianity that differs from the disunity among--say, Democrats with Democrats and Republicans with Republicans?
It is the same story whether secular or religious: HARDCORE FUNDAMENTALISTS are always at odds with SOFTSHELL PROGRESSIVES.
The rest is rhetoric and jockeying for position in pitting one group against the other.
Discussion at the upper levels of religion and politics is always rhetoric aimed at framing the other guy's position in the worst possible light.
PRO-LIFE vs WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE. Take that one, for a good example. You have holy spirit accepting, trinitarian agreeing, Bible loving christians on both sides of that terrible issue, don't you?
Has the Holy Spirit or the Bible done anything to keep Christians from shaking their fist at other Christians on such issues?
I think not!
The proof is in the taste of the pudding.
The arguments I hear and read from Christians from diverse factions are pretty much all Pre-Enlightenment arguments without a shred of practical logic to them.
One Christian call another christian "wrong" and views them as unstable, immoral and doomed. Each, however, is convinced beyond all reasonable persuasion that HE has preserved fundamental doctrine inside of his own heart and head!
Yet, the fact is that these peoples copied and preserved the word of God in their hearts and on paper until the politically connected reformers rediscovered the fundamental doctrines of Christianity that had ALWAYS been preserved ....Just like Jesus indicated that they would by the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
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Perry
I don't like long posts Terry. Sorry for pasting the whole thing over again.
Jesus arrived and his disciples and Apostles didn't really understand much of anything He said. After all, he spoke in parables and didn't hang around very long. Jesus never instructed any of his followers to write down what he was saying. Neither did Jesus himself write anything down.
He commanded them to preach. That is an oral tradition.
The Jews who believed in a Messianic Jesus watched him die and heard promises that he'd come back and finish the job later. But, that was "Sooner" later, in their belief. They were wrong. He never returned.
We'll sure he did, just 40 days later when the Holy Spirit (which is of the same essence as Jesus) took up residence in teh hearts of believers as foretold in Malachi.
Now everybody, Gentile and Jew, really really expected Jesus would return QUICKLY to finish his work.
Jesus did NOT return quickly. I repeat: Jesus never returned!
Not true. Jesus returned in body three days after crucifixion. He returned by means of the Holy Spirit 40 days later. He will return to catch up "those who are alive at his coming" in the Rapture to meet the Lord in the Air. Seven years after this he will return with tens of thousands of his saints to do battle with the Anti-Christ.
People such as Jehovah's Witnesses jumped the shark and gave us a Jesus who is back---but, who does nothing!
From the death of Jesus, and later his apostles, the message was passed around. People with different belief systems adopted THEIR VERSION of what they heard. When they believed---(this is important) they believed THEIR VERSION.
As far as I know--and you can correct me if I'm wrong---the ONLY person in the New Testament who was directly instructed to write anything down was John in the "vision" in Revelation.
The oral message spread, certainly. But, Judaism was almost wiped out in 70 a.d. At least it had a huge setback from which, I'd argue, it has never recovered.
This is where we really have a terrible problem for Christians at large today.
Who was shepherding the diverse group of believers?
If you say Jerusalem, well, Jerusalem wasn't instructing Paul what to preach. Jerusalem and Paul were sniffing each other out. Paul had a DIRECT contact (if you believe his vision story) with the Lord and Jerusalem did not.
Everybody had Holy Spirit (or so we are given to understand). But, Holy Spirit didn't stave off what happened to Christianity as far as the ROMANIZING effect of pagan rulership under Constantine.
My point?
If God were running the show through Jesus and the Holy Spirit simply by giving each christian believer a tingling sensation of special contact---it hasn't prevented the corruption of the identity of Christianity with Catholicism.
Splinter groups opposed by an enormous Catholic monolith with the power of Rome behind it doesn't speak well for God's organizational strengths!
If God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus could only barely manage a rag-tag insurgency of martyrs and squabbling heretics it doesn't speak well for THE KINGDOM OF GOD, now does it?
It speaks volumes.... 50 million of them before the end of the 17th century and untold millions thereafter. The wheat and the weeds... they all grow up together. It's also called Western Civilization.
Where in the scriptures is there a command to make a Bible to straighten things out? It was oral tradition and oral teaching and preaching and not the written commands and documentary bastion of carefully preserved orthodoxy which Christianity embraced in the beginning.
"All Scripture is inspired".... you know the scripture. Also...."born along by spirit".
This leaves us with a GIANT, GAPING HOLE logic-wise.
1.If God communicates with Christians directly by Holy Spirit--what do you need a bible for?
Already addressed above. The word is the primary tool for teaching, setting things straight etc. The role of the Holy Spirit is to VERIFY that the believer is a child of God. "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God". No more fear of death, no more fear of punishment, free to speak with confidence if you are not a lazy Christian. Which by the way there is perfect freedom to be a lazy Christian.
2.If God communicates with Christianity by Church, then why did the Catholic Church drown out the thousand factions of congregational disunity?
Christ is the head of the congregation. There is no clear organization other than pastors and deacons (local elected servants) in the scriptures. You have to jump through hoops to make a pyramid.
3.If God communicates with Christianity by magisterium, tradition and scripture--then why wasn't the Catholic Church kept pure of pagan corruption and political whoremongering?
God communicates with and is saving people, not organizations. Not one scripture supports otherwise.
4.If God communicates with Christianity by Bible alone---why did the original autograph uncorrupt texts vanish suspiciously into a void only to be replaced over and over and over again by layers of "translation" opinion in which the scribes and copyists shaped the contents to fit pre-conceived ideas?
This is of course grossly overstated as has been born out on this very thread. The current KJ bible has as a foundation over 99% of all known NT manuscripts that enjoy near total doctrinal agreement. The handful of disputes in the majority texts are easily figured out from the thousands of copies of sermons, quotes of early church fathers etc. - Old News
We don't have the originals because people wore them out. I've worn out several bibles myself. Not suspicious at all.
5.Any word (like "Christian") which can mean anything really means nothing. Christians may agree on general Creed statements---but--they do not embrace one another in the spirit of "that they have love among themselves" as is abundantly demonstrated by sectarian polemic.
My experience has been otherwise. Perhaps yours has been different. I have seen Charismatics pray with pastors of fundamental baptists (southern baptists are more liberal) and welcome each other in love. Preaching and teaching together is another matter. They should separate from each other in those tasks. The Lord will judge each at the Bema Seat and will reward according to works (not salvation).
The black and white fact of Christianity is that Christians disagree with each other's beliefs about hundreds of issues which tear them apart.
I just don't see this "tearing apart" you refer to. Christ is the head of the Congregation, He knows who are his.
It doesn't seem to matter whether there is a Trinity or not when it comes to the split in the Baptist convention, does it?
What really is the unity in Christianity that differs from the disunity among--say, Democrats with Democrats and Republicans with Republicans?
Well Love of course among those who confess Jesus is Lord. I see an awful lot of this. I've been rather amazed at the bumps that I have seen come up among brothers that are just "put away".
It is the same story whether secular or religious: HARDCORE FUNDAMENTALISTS are always at odds with SOFTSHELL PROGRESSIVES.
And the Lord will do the Judging as to the profitability of each one's work, not me. Salvation will not be determined at the Bema Seat...rewards will (crowns). It's the Lord's house Terry. Lotta folks in here. The Lord is able to govern from the inside of believers. It is far better than anything man could ever devise.
The rest is rhetoric and jockeying for position in pitting one group against the other.
Discussion at the upper levels of religion and politics is always rhetoric aimed at framing the other guy's position in the worst possible light.
PRO-LIFE vs WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE. Take that one, for a good example. You have holy spirit accepting, trinitarian agreeing, Bible loving christians on both sides of that terrible issue, don't you?
Not generally, no. Christians Dems who vote for a pro-choice candidate will say there are more than that one issue at stake. I'm gonna let the Lord sort that one out while letting my opinion be known.
Has the Holy Spirit or the Bible done anything to keep Christians from shaking their fist at other Christians on such issues?
Just because we're Christian we're not supposed to have opinions? Do you miss the uniformity of the WT?
I think not!
The proof is in the taste of the pudding.
The arguments I hear and read from Christians from diverse factions are pretty much all Pre-Enlightenment arguments without a shred of practical logic to them.
Like? Why don't you start a thread on one of these arguments that you feel is without logic and invite Christians to join?
One Christian call another christian "wrong" and views them as unstable, immoral and doomed. Each, however, is convinced beyond all reasonable persuasion that HE has preserved fundamental doctrine inside of his own heart and head!
Again, I have seen this at times. The flesh is stubborn. But, why does it bother you? The Lord will reward each according to his work. Let's say you and I were building two huts while camping and yours was better than mine. Won't the wind and rain bear that fact out in time?
1 Cor. 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.It's the Lord's problem Terry. He can work it out. Perry should worry about Perry, and Terry should worry about Terry. (easier to type than to say I'm sure)
Yet, the fact is that these peoples copied and preserved the word of God in their hearts and on paper until the politically connected reformers rediscovered the fundamental doctrines of Christianity that had ALWAYS been preserved ....Just like Jesus indicated that they would by the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
