Thanks for another great topic. It's amazing to see how these ideas don't just come out of thin air. They all have roots somewhere. I would have never thought that learning about Calvinism would answer this vague, unformed question I've carried with me for so long.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination
by AllTimeJeff 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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bulgogiboy
I was chatting with a brother about Armageddon once, about what would happen to all the people in China and India who had never had any contact with JWs. His response was that 95% or so of them would get the chop, because it wasnt in them to turn to Jehovah, it wasnt in their 'genes' (exact word used). That made me very uncomfortable, even when I was solidly in the JW mindset. What kind of God would create people with 'genes' that make them incapable of salvation?
I got the impression that alot of witnesses felt they had been 'called' by Jehovah, that he had seen 'something good' in their hearts, so given them the joy of becoming a member of his organisation. I would go further than say its just pre-destination. If people are 'called' to serve Jehovah, and as a result their kids, grankids, or even great grankids gain friendship with God and the 'knowledge that leads to everlasting life', not through their own merit, but simply because they have been raised in the organisation, then its a clear case of nepotism. The JWs arent of course related to him in a physical sense, but nevertheless The God of the Bible is nepotistic and befriends and assists people on the basis of how close their relatives are to him. This has been evident since the times of ancient Israel. Even the ministry of Jesus was exclusively centred around the Israelites, and non-Jews had to beg him for assistance that he would otherwise give freely to his own people. For example the woman who had to beg him to help her demon-possessed daughter in Mark 7:26 “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” It was only due to her lightning-fast reply which impressed him, that he decided against his usual nepotistic practice and chose to help the innocent, suffering child.
There're your Gods, the scary one in the sky and the sandal wearer from Nazareth. A couple of pricks.
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glenster
P.S.: just taking one imaginable possibility--that God is transcendent over all
created things and exnihilated everything (however that's imagined):Since time is relative to matter and space, He'd be transendent over time as
we know it and are stuck in it as He's transcendent over matter and space. He
could set it all into motion like a crap shoot, giving everyone freedom of
choice, and have an overview that lets Him know the future as well. -
XJW4EVR
Hi Jeff,
I read your OP with great interest, as I am a Calvinistic Christian. While it is well thought out, and concise, I believe that you have some misconceptions about Calvinism that you are trying to fit into Watchtower dogma. WT dogma and the so-called five points of Calvinism are mutually exclusive. In fact, if WT dogma matches any Reformation era doctrine, it matches the teachings of Jacob Arminius, the author of what we call Arminianism today.
Your view on total depravity, is not even remotely close to what either Calvinism or Arminianism teach. While both believe in original sin (the idea that humanity is born sinful), they diverge on its effect on humanity. Arminianism teaches that man has a "free will", i.e., the ability to chose God free of their sinful natures. Calvinism, on the other hand, teaches that humanity's ability to chose is depraved. In other words, that humainity's depravity is total or full, and that nothing inside individual humans longs for God. I am aware of no JW dogma that affirms total depravity as taught within Calvinism. On the other hand, I have seen many writings that would affirm the Arminian view.
The other thing you seem to be doing is confusing Divine predestination with Divine providence. While their differences may be subtle, they are there. Predestination refers to God's sovereign decrees regarding an individual's future (Calvinism) or God's foreknowledge of an individual's faith (Arminianism). Providence refers to how God works out is predestined decrees in the lives of humanity, e.g. the examples you have mentioned. Both Calvinists and Arminians hold to the above view on Divine providence with some distinctions that are trivial.
There are four other points in Calvinism that I could go into and demonstrate the differences between it and Watchtower dogma, however that might not be what you are looking for in this discussion. What I will say, is that the Watchtower is in NO WAY Calvinistic in its soteriology. It is 100% Arminian, from the idea of human autonomy down to the question of a believer losing his/her salvation.
There are two books that I would recommend that fully address these two views. For the Calvinistic view, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner, and for the Arminian view, Chosen but Free by Norman Geisler.
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AllTimeJeff
Hey XJW4EVR
Thank you for sharing your beliefs. As a caveat, I didn't mean to over simplify Calvinistic dogma, or any related dogma. As I am sure you got, my main point was in highlighting a JW belief that while they deny, seem to practice and believe in. To highlight Calvinism was merely to draw on that general belief system as a comparison piece.
I happily allow that I did a poor job in explaining the Calvinist belief system, and I apologize if I got it wrong.
I am curious however, as I now know you to be Calvin, if you agree with my opinion as to JW beliefs regarding their own seeming version of predestination. (which was my main point)
Thanks!
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designs
CT Russell, in particular, turned from his Presbyterian-Calvinisitc upbringing. It was the one thing that destroyed his Faith in God, he claimed, and was helped by the Adventists to be a believer again.
J.Rutherford and F.Franz both had Protestant upbringing, Rutherford a Baptist and Franz a Presbyterian. Their religious upbringing had an influence on their writings both for and against Calvinism and Arminianism and for and against certain Dispensationalist views held by the Bible Students and other groups.
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leec
Predestiny has far broader roots than Calvinism. The whole set of conclusions that come out of the "God is all-knowing" thing strongly suggest predestination. The ultra-common saying "everything happens for a reason" implies the same.
What puzzles me personally though is that, having been raised Catholic, I don't recall this concept as part of any religious teaching. Is Catholicism unique among Christian religions in this way, or am I just not remembering or putting things together correctly?
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besty
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."
"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.
"Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Are you religious?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
"Christian."
"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."
I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off. -
XJW4EVR
Hey XJW4EVR
Thank you for sharing your beliefs. As a caveat, I didn't mean to over simplify Calvinistic dogma, or any related dogma. As I am sure you got, my main point was in highlighting a JW belief that while they deny, seem to practice and believe in. To highlight Calvinism was merely to draw on that general belief system as a comparison piece.
I happily allow that I did a poor job in explaining the Calvinist belief system, and I apologize if I got it wrong.
I am curious however, as I now know you to be Calvin, if you agree with my opinion as to JW beliefs regarding their own seeming version of predestination. (which was my main point)
Thanks!
No, I do not agree with your opinion. The reason, as I put it in my first point, is that you appear to have confused predestination with providence. Predestination are the decrees of God. Providence is the outwork of those decrees. If there is a Christian system of soteriology that matches JW dogma it is Arminianism. Arminianism was the easiest belief system for me to import into my new found Christianity nearly 20 years ago. It is an interesting view, but it does not hold any water, IMO.