Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

by AllTimeJeff 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AllTimeJeff

  Thanks for your thoughts. I bow to your representation of your religion and beliefs obviously.

  Having said that, this has long been my view of Calvinism, likely due to JW indoctrination. But many have this simplified view of Calvinism.

  I am no longer in favor of simplified views of anything. I hope my oversimplification didn't cause defense.

  I will say from a theological/dogma point of view that predestination and providence to the "untrained" eye seems to be a distinction without a difference on many levels.

  Thanks for your thoughts XJW4EVR.
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  GLTirebiter

  @leec

  I don't recall this concept as part of any religious teaching. Is Catholicism unique among Christian religions in this way, or am I just not remembering or putting things together correctly?

  I'm paraphrasing and may over-simply, but the RCC doctrine on predestination that I was taught has these basic premises:

  • God gave you free will, to pursue a sinful life or a virtuous one
  • God doesn't make that choice for you, it's your responsibility
  • God sees what is in your heart and knows what your choice will be
  • If you end up in Hell, don't blame God: it was your decision!

  GLT
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  dinah

  Whilst in my waking up period I found at least 7 religions that grew out of the 4 men who supposedly studied the bible together. Crap, where did I put that notebook.

  Russell studied the bible with some other dudes before he figured the shit (hoodwinked us) out.
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  lrkr

  I also thought a little about the Calvinist influence on JW's. It seems to me that the concept of the "elect" has strongly influenced JW thought. JW's acknowledge that you can sin, fall, turn your back on God (like all of us terrible apostates)- so there really cannot be real "predestination" - but they still carry that notion that they were selected, elected, out of all the religions on the planet to be the one voice of God. That seems to me to be Calvinistic. This sense that the JW's are priviledged above all others to have the true and only understanding of the Bible- even calling their way of belief- "the truth". The anointed (144,000) are ordained by God- selected, to be kings and priests- no merit system whatsoever- you are just chosen- no one knows why or how- just by Gods divine will you are somehow the only ones.

  Seems different from Catholicism or other protestant denominations idea that all men receive "grace" from God. That all are his children and deserving of mercy.

  Just a few theological thoughts- no disrespect meant xjw4evr.

  My personal beliefs are better expressed by this quote: We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. – Richard Dawkins
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  Chalam

  Hello all,

  Just to add my 2¢.

  I believe in predestination, I see it throughout the bible, not just here Romans 8 Ephesians 1

  Does that make me a Calvinist? In some senses yes, but maybe not.

  I believe the following verses fully also and my focus is on them.

  John 3:16 (New International Version)

  16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version)

  9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

  1 Timothy 2:3-6 (New International Version)

  3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

  In my own limited mental capacity, I see that there seemingly is a tension between these verses and those which speak of predestination.

  However, my brain does not know the beginning and the end, it did not create this universe, time and space, and does not fully understand the principles and laws of the Kingdom. That said, I feel that both are true in my spirit where I have "the mind of Christ" i.e. the Holy Spirit lives.

  My job is to let people know the good news, not just a select few. If some choose to reject Jesus, that is their job not mine.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
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  designs

  Stephen,

  Its not rejecting Jesus per se its the religious crazies and their literal fundamentalist views that are the thing that has given Jesus such a bad rap.

  Fortunately there are saner views. The Fundi's don't own him, they just think they do

  We learned how to spot crazy religions.

  'Do a little good each day'
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  slimboyfat

  Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in predestination. I have not read anything on this thread to convince otherwise.

  The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses have a God who only selectively knows and ordains the future is in fact one of the major complaints against them from Evangelicals.

  It's also what makes the God of Jehovah's Witnesses more human than the austere unknown God of Calvinism; more like the Jehovah of Genesis who is unaware of human intentions, waits for reactions, explores, finds things out, rather than the unknowable, unapproachable Father of the NT for whom a mediator is required.
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  BurnTheShips

  I am not a Calvinist, but XJW4EVR did an excellent job of explaining it. He is also correct, JW soteriology is a lot closer to Arminianism than it is to Calvinism.

  As for Catholics, there is a great freedom for diversity of views. A Catholic can be extremely close to the classical Calvinist position, or the Arminian one, and still be within the pale. Calvinism maps closely to Augustinianism. In fact, many Protestants have summed up Calvinist theology as "systematized Augustinianism". Armininianism maps closely to Molinism in the Catholic context. I am pretty much a Molinist, myself, in the way I view reconciling God's omniscience with Man's free will. Since the differences have never been a threat to unity in Catholicism, the Catholic Church has never bothered to define a clear dogma on the subject. In Protestantism, there were the Calvinist and Arminian camps, and they warred on each other back in the early days of the Reformation. Personally, I really love how John Wesley, the founder of Methodism (Whitefield was a great guy too, even Benjamin Franklin liked his sermons when he visited America), explained things:

  http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/128/

  BTS
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  quietlyleaving

  I may be dead wrong but it does seem to that Jehovahs witness beliefs are quite simliar to calvinistic thinking in that they foster the idea that believers are separate from the rest of mankind. This idea is further doubled within their structure in that the 144,000 are more chosen than the great crowd. It seems to me that the role JWs define for the 144,000 is hyper Calvinistic and pretty fatalistic.
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  XJW4EVR

  Rather than make arguements based on fallacious strawmen I have decided to write down the two views, Arminianism and Calvinism and contrast them. Understand that I am a Calvinist (though for the first five years of my Christianity I was an Arminian), however, I have spent a number of years studying these views both in theology and church history. I have great condensed them down to one or two sentences that do not fully explore the nuances of either belief.

  Point One:

  Arminian: Arminians believe that humanity's fall into sin is not total. They believe that "the will" is free from any influence from sin and/or God.

  Calvinism: Calvinists believe that humanity's fall into sin is total. They believe that man's will is in bondage to sin, and in such condition is unable to seek after God, unless God first intervenes.

  Point Two:

  A: The election of the saints is conditioned upon the response of the believer to the offer of salvation.

  C: The election of the saints is based unconditionally on the choice of the Father.

  Point Three:

  A: The atoning work of Jesus on the cross is effective to save all humanity.

  C: The atoning work of Jesus on the cross is powerful enough to save all humanity, but is only effective to save those who the Father elected.

  Point Four:

  A: The saving grace of God can be resisted by the individual.

  C: The saving grace of God cannot be resisted.

  Point Five:

  A: In classic Arminianism, preserverance of the saints was something that was not clear. However, in modern Arminianism, it is viewed that the believer can lose his/her salvation.

  C: The believer may from time to time fall into sin, but will never fall totally and permanently into sin. Those that do fully and finally fall into sin were never believers to begin with.

  With the two contrasted, it is clear that the JWs are more Arminian, if not fully Arminian.

  A couple of points: Chalam, I appreciate your citings of Scripture. However, nothing in John 3:16 negates any teaching found within the doctrines of grace(i.e., Calvinism). Calvinists beleive that the "whosoever" do not make this decision of their own volition, but only after the Holy Spirit has enabled them to do so. This is confirmed in John 1:10-18, as well as in Romans 3:9-18.

  I will post more later.