abraham , a question for those who still believe in god (page 3)

John Doe

So, a vision or a dream would not work?

I'm just trying to determine how far to keep away from you when you have sharp objects in your possession.

snowbird

Fact is the test was NOT needed because God is all knowing and he KNEW what Abe would do IF he asked him.

Not according to the Genesis narrative.

The event probably never happened.

I believe it did.

As for Jesus, Jesus's sacrifice was a voluntary one, Jesus decided that he would do this, it was his choice and HIS sacrifice

.

According to Scripture, it was the Father's initiative - the Son willingly submitted, but went through pure agony nonetheless.

Sylvia

snowbird

So, a vision or a dream would not work?

Nope.

In that regard, I'm like Thomas.

Sylvia

“O LORD, Thou has searched me and know me. Thou hast known when I sit down and when I rise up; Thou dost understand my thoughts from afar. Thou dost scrutinize my path and my lying down, and art intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, O LORD, Thou dost know it all” (139:1-4).

snowbird

Genesis 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." NIV

Sylvia

PSacramento

Obviously, God was confused.

;)

snowbird

ROFL.

You're a mess, PSac!

Sylvia

BurnTheShips

Shamelessly ripped off of Wikipedia, the Christian section follows this one at the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac#Jewish_responses

Jewish responses

The majority of Jewish Biblical commentators argue that God was testing Abraham to see if he would actually kill his own son, as a test of his loyalty. However, a number of Jewish Biblical commentators from the mediæval era, and many in the modern era, do not agree with this notion. They read the text in another way.

The early rabbinic midrash Genesis Rabbah imagines God as saying "I never considered telling Abraham to slaughter Isaac (using the Hebrew root letters for "slaughter", not "sacrifice")". Rabbi Yona Ibn Janach (Spain, 11th century) wrote that God demanded only a symbolic sacrifice. Rabbi Yosef Ibn Caspi (Spain, early 14th century) wrote that Abraham's "imagination" led him astray, making him believe that he had been commanded to sacrifice his son. Ibn Caspi writes "How could God command such a revolting thing?" But according to Rabbi J. H. Hertz (Chief Rabbi of the British Empire), child sacrifice was actually "rife among the Semitic peoples," and suggests that "in that age, it was astounding that Abraham's God should have interposed to prevent the sacrifice, not that He should have asked for it." Hertz interprets the Akedah as demonstrating to the Jews that human sacrifice is abhorrent. "Unlike the cruel heathen deities, it was the spiritual surrender alone that God required." In Jeremiah 32:35, God states that the later Israelite practice of child sacrifice to the deityMolech "had [never] entered My mind that they should do this abomination."

Other rabbinic scholars also note that Abraham was willing to do everything to spare his son, even if it meant going against the divine command: while it was God who ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son, it was an angel, a lesser being in the celestial hierarchy, that commanded him to stop. However, the actions and words of angels (from the Greek for "messenger") are generally understood to derive directly from God's will, and indeed, the angel in question speaks as if he were God Himself.

In some later Jewish writings, most notably those of the Hasidic masters, the theology of a "divine test" is rejected, and the sacrifice of Isaac is interpreted as a "punishment" for Abraham's earlier "mistreatment" of Ishmael, his elder son, whom he expelled from his household at the request of his wife, Sarah. According to this view, Abraham failed to show compassion for his son, so God punished him by ostensibly failing to show compassion for Abraham's son. This is a somewhat flawed theory, however, since the Bible says that God agreed with Sarah, and it was only at His insistence that Abraham actually had Ishmael leave. In The Last Trial, Shalom Spiegel argues that these commentators were interpreting the Biblical narration as an implicit rebuke against Christianity's claim that God would sacrifice His own son.

The Tzemach Tzedek [ 1 ] cites a question asked by Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk: At first glance, this appears to have been mainly a test of Isaac, for he was the one to be giving up his life al kiddush Hashem (in order to sanctify God’s Name). But if that is so, why does the Torah state (Gen. 22:1) that God meant to test Abraham, and omits Isaac?

Rabbi Menachem Mendel answers that although it is a very great Mitzvah to give up one’s life, it is unremarkable in the annals of Jewish history. Even the most unlettered and “ordinary” Jews would surrender their lives in martyrdom. Thus, as great a Mitzvah as it is, this test is considered trivial for someone of the spiritual stature of Isaac, who, as one of our forefathers, was likened to God’s “chariot” (Gen. Rabba 47:6) for he served as a vehicle for the divine traits of kindness, strictness, and compassion.

Rather, at the binding the main one tested was Abraham. It was a test of faith to see whether he would doubt God's words. Abraham had been assured by God that “Your seed will be called through Isaac” (Gen. 21:12), i.e., Isaac (and not Ishmael) would father a great nation—the Jewish people. However, Abraham could apparently have asked a very glaring question: At the time that God commanded him to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, Isaac was still single, and if Isaac would die now, how could he possibly father the nation which was to be born from Abraham? Moreover, isn’t God eternal and unchanging, as God declares: “I have not changed” (Malachi 3:6), implying that He does not change His mind?

Yet Abraham paid no attention to this altogether logical question. Instead, he dismissed it totally from his consciousness, and believed with pure and simple faith that if this is what God was telling him to do now, this was surely the right thing to do. It was passing this test that was remarkable even for someone of Abraham’s stature.

In The Binding of Isaac, Religious Murders & Kabbalah, Lippman Bodoff argues that Abraham never intended to actually sacrifice his son, and that he had faith that God had no intention that he do so.

Others suggest [who?] that Abraham's apparent complicity with the sacrifice was actually his way of testing God. Abraham had previously argued with God to save lives in Sodom and Gomorrah. By silently complying with God's instructions to kill Isaac, Abraham was putting pressure on God to act in a moral way to preserve life. More evidence that Abraham thought that he won't actually sacrifice Isaac comes from Genesis 22:5, where Abraham said to his servants, "You stay here with the ass. The boy and I will go up there; we will worship and we will return to you." By saying that we (as opposed to I), he meant that both he and Isaac will return. Thus, he didn't believe that Isaac would be sacrificed in the end [ 2 ]

In The Guide for the Perplexed, Maimonides argues that the story of the Binding of Isaac contains two "great notions." First, Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac demonstrates the limit of humanity's capability to both love and fear God. Second, because Abraham acted on a prophetic vision of what God had asked him to do, the story exemplifies how prophetic revelation has the same truth value as philosophical argument and thus carries equal certainty, notwithstanding the fact that it comes in a dream or vision. [ 3 ]

PSacramento

BTS,

Thanks for that article, I had forgotten about that view.

Sylvia,

In 1John God knows all:

19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth, and reassure our hearts before him 20 whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Jesus says the samething in Matthew with the parable of the birds in the sky.

And in Hebrews:

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-
 edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, 
 joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the 
 heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. 
 Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to 
 whom we must give account." Hebrews 4:12-13

snowbird

The WT artfullly dodges such implicit questions by stating that there are certain things God chooses not to know!

LOL.

I won't pretend I have the answer, yet I believe.

Sylvia

abraham , a question for those who still believe in god

Jewish responses

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