To borrow from Terry's thread, how can you be certain of a text tampered with by Bishops with an agenda. If getting on your belly and worshipping Jesus in that manner makes you a more caring person, fine! But the reality is you have dozens of Jesus images running through people's heads. To hold to the way a particular Creed defines him or rewrote his identity is begging.
John 9:38 in NWT renders it as formerly blind man "did obeisance" to Jesus. Other translations state he,"worshiped Jesus". Who's right?
by miseryloveselders 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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snowbird
Great point, Isaac.
You will never find Jesus of Nazareth saying, "Rise, I myself am also a man," when some "did obeisance" to Him.
The WT is ensnared in its own net!
Tee hee hee.
Sylvia
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isaacaustin
Designs you do make a valid point there as well.
I think the point he is trying to make is that this thread is arguing/discussing the use of a term whereas while he is questioning the validity of the source materials transmission to us today, he is pointing out it should not be critical to who we are a speople inside.
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isaacaustin
Great point, Isaac.
You will never find Jesus of Nazareth saying, "Rise, I myself am also a man," when some "did obeisance" to Him.
The WT is ensnared in its own net!
Tee hee hee.
Sylvia
I caught my wife up in this one. She tried to say that Jesus should receive obeisance because he was God's son. It then became a futile discussion as she tried to say he was not worshipped...I took her to Revelation 5 where the whole heavenly host worshipped and she consulted her Revelation book and read me their comments on it and shut down.
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donuthole
Similar to what is said above, at Rev 22:8 an angel forbids John from rendering him obeisance/worship stating that he is a fellow servant.
So in the New Testament Peter forbids receiving obeisance/worship stating that he is simply a man, an angel forbids receiving obeisance/worship stating that he is simply a servant, yet Jesus readily receives obeisance/worship without rebuke from the man born blind.
Evidently (to use JW lingo) the honor that Jesus receives is greater than man or angel.
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garyneal
Marking.
Yeah, good points on a man and an angel denying worship (er, obeisance) while Jesus readily accepts it. Guess he is that super-angel, I mean what else can He be if He is greater than a man or an angel but is also 'a god?'
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villabolo
Chalam: "As you can see, the word for worship here is prosekunesen"
Chalam. There are two words in the Greek that are rendered worship. Latreia is one of them and you can verify that in any interlinear and lexicon. The proper question is why are there two words? Do they mean exactly the same thing? Does not latreia apply exclusively to God and is proskunesen not defined as obeisance in Christian Lexicons and used not only in reference to God but in reference to men laying prostate before superiors including Jewish High Priests (In the Greek Septuagint). If proskuneo is used in such a broad category it does not prove that Jesus was treated on the same level as God.
You would need a term that is exclusive to God also used in reference to Jesus to prove that Proskuneo which is used in obeisance or prostation to non divine characters like the Jewish High Priests just doesn't cut it. By the way, I checked out your reference above to Biblos which gives the "short definition" as worship. That short definition is actually an amputated definition which just doesn't cut it in view of the fact that the word as I just said and repeat for emphasis was also used with regards to men who represented God.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=proskuneo&s=References&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=latreia&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK&ps=10&s=References
villabolo
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Chalam
Hello VB,
Agreed, there are two words for worship 2999. latreia (lat-ri'-ah) 4352. proskuneo (pros-koo-neh'-o)
However, the former is used only 5 times in the NT but the later has 61 occurences.
There is a fundamental difference in these two words as you have mentioned, the later being used in the context of divine service.
The former is a much broader term and often involves a physical posturing in the form of bowing down or prostrating oneself.
The difference is certainly not to do with worship of the Father verses Jesus as proskuneo is used numerous times in respect of the Father and the Son.
Blessings,
Stephen
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HappyGuy
I find this nitpicking over obesience vs worship (by the WTBTS) to be a bit disingenuous. Miriam Webster dictionary defines obesience as "a movement of the body made in token of respect or submission". Isn't obesience in the contexts given in the scriptures above simply the act of worship? So using the word obesience instead of worship is like saying "Joe shook BillyBob's hand" instead of saying "Joe greeted BillyBob". The second sentence describes what happened, the first sentence describes how it happened.
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designs
Happy,
I like your style. At the end of the day what do your Beliefs make you. Are you kind, generous, involved in your family and community and the earth.
And what is worship, what does it look like, or what mental images are required, and are some conforming to one set of rules judging others with another set of rules.