John 9:38 in NWT renders it as formerly blind man "did obeisance" to Jesus. Other translations state he,"worshiped Jesus". Who's right?

miseryloveselders

This is the story regarding the man blind from birth, whom Jesus healed. The verses in question go in context, ..............

(John 9:35-41) 35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and, on finding him, he said: “Are you putting faith in the Son of man?” 36 The [man] answered: “And who is he, sir, that I may put faith in him?” 37 Jesus said to him: “You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.” 38 Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him. 39 And Jesus said: “For [this] judgment I came into this world: that those not seeing might see and those seeing might become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: “We are not blind also, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them: “If YOU were blind, YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ‘We see.’ YOUR sin remains.” - New World Translation from CD Rom

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%209:35-41&version=KJV

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I guess there is confusion surrounding the word, "proskuneo". You scholars on here, can I get some assistance? Leolia, Scholar, Larsinger? Chalam, Perry, Jonathan Dough? Somebody, anybody? Mary, Blondie?

stillajwexelder

BOTH -ALL

villabolo

Miseryloveselders: There are two words in the Greek for "worship" one is latreia and the other proskuneo. Latreia is supposed to be the word that applies to God alone. Proskuneo is supposedly used in the Greek Septuagint to translate acts of prostation applied to angels and even royalty. I'm sorry that I don't have my interlinears handy to verify this but it appears that the use of proskuneo (which I believe was the one used here and definitely is the word used in Hebrews 1:6) does not necessarily imply that Jesus was being treated in the same way as God. You may want to ask our resident scholar Leolaia to verify this and give more details. PM her if she doesn't respond to your post.

villabolo

Chalam

Hello MLE,

The first thing you need to know is the original NWT never used the word "obeisance", only "worship".

The second thing is the WT used to allow worship of Jesus, now they don't. Are they right with this "new light"?

Time to go Greek http://biblos.com/john/9-38.htm

As you can see, the word for worship here is prosekunesen

If you click on it you will find the other entries for this word http://concordance.biblos.com/prosekune_sen.htm

OK four verses, exact same word for each.

http://bible.cc/mark/5-6.htm

http://bible.cc/john/9-38.htm

http://bible.cc/acts/10-25.htm

http://bible.cc/hebrews/11-21.htm

As you can see, the most common rendering is worship. A few use alternative words such as reverance, homage etc.

The main thing to note is the consistency in rendering for each entry for this word in the bible.

OK, now check the NWT.

Mark 5:6 But on catching sight of Jesus from a distance he ran and did obeisance to him

John 9:38 Jesus said to him: “You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.” Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

Acts 10:25 As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance to him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man.”

Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped leaning upon the top of his staff.

So the question we are asking is should we worship Jesus as we do the Father?

Let us put aside the Acts 10:25 entry which concerns itself with Peter (who in any case told Cornelius to stop what he was doing).

The verses in Mark and John concern themselves with Jesus and Hebrews with God (the Father). In the NWT Jacob worships the Father, but Jesus, only receives obeisance. Exact same word in the original text, rendered differently for Jesus compared with the Father?!

If you check every entry for proskuneó you will find that worship is used in the NWT for only "Jehovah".

There is no reason for this decision save their own (false) theology.

The bible provides its own damming evidence as to their falsehood.

John 5:23 (New International Version)

23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

The question boils down to if Jesus is God or "a god" as the WT teach. The issue of worship should help you in drawing your own conclusion.

Blessings,

Stephen

The Finger

Surely any obeisance done before a god is worship. The three mentioned in Daniel chapter 3 and shown on the old Jehovahs Witness calendar could not have done obesiance before the image as this could be viewed as worship. Saluting the flag although not bowing is viewed in such manner as idolatry. In Phillipians 2:10. I believe is a quote of Isaiah 45:23 which is worship cross referenced in the NWT with Psalms 95:6. Bending the knee to Jesus who is a god according to JW's and all the other christians who are doing the same and viewing Jesus as God and this as worship, I think it would be hard to defend that if the Witness bends the knee to Jesus he is not worshipping, just as the three hebrews were unable to do lest it be viewed as worship.

sacolton

Was Jesus worshiped? Yes. However, the Watchtower changes the meaning in some scriptures that show worship is done for demons, angels and men, but never to Jesus. Nice, eh?

The NWT is very bias in how it translates the word "proskuneo." Whenever it is in reference to Jesus, they absolutely will not let it be translated as worship. Why? Because they erringly deny that Jesus is God in flesh and their Bible reflects their bias. This is not how proper theology is done.

Chalam

Most JWs would respond with something like this

Exodus 34:14 (New International Version)

14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

In that respect, consider these verses

Isaiah 45:21-23 (New International Version)

21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

Now see what the NT has to say about them

Philippians 2:5-11 (New International Version)

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Clearly, Jesus can only be God and Saviour, not "a god" and "a saviour", He is worshipped just as the Father is worshipped in Isaiah 45.

This is not semantics but the very essence of who Jesus is, fully God and fully man, Jesus and the Father are one.

In this light of passages like this, there can only be one rendering of John 1:1

John 1:1 (New International Version)

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Blessings, Stephen

designs

So what happens if the Jesus of one's imagination turns out to be not the ultimate reality, or the dozens of imaginations about the Jesus of modern Christianity is all based on just historical revisionism.

Did the Creeds ruin this good Jew.

Do you think he runs a literal Hell.

Would you be a good person, helping others and caring for this earth if your Beliefs needed to change.

sacolton

Let's not hijack this thread, designs. The question is why the translation for "proskuneo" (worship) doesn't apply to Jesus.

isaacaustin

Let's concede the translation as 'obeisance' for a second.

Acts 10: 25 As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance to him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man.” NWT

What did Peter do when offered obeisance? If obeisance is not to be given to man what does that say about Jesus, and what was given him?