"My husband and I are one". What would that mean?
I and the Father are one. John 10:30.
by dgp 33 Replies latest jw experiences
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Chalam
Hello cofty,
I do not feel a personal attack :)
Sure, we disagree and freedom of though and speech is to be valued.
I did not seek to insult you as an exJW or any lurking JWs by calling the religion a delusion.
I would still be suprised if you would not agree with my summation though, after all you are now an atheist and any belief in God surely must be a delusion in your mind?
To tell the truth though, I am still curious to your views and experience. For example, why defend the WT anti-Trinitarian view if you do not believe in the existence or God?
Blessings,
Stephen
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cofty
Thank you Stephen.
I did not seek to insult you as an exJW or any lurking JWs by calling the religion a delusion.
That's OK it is a delusion no question about that,
after all you are now an atheist and any belief in God surely must be a delusion in your mind?
Yes I would have to agree with that. It seemed totally real and very compelling to me when I was a christian though and I would never seek to insult or demean anybody for their faith as long as they keep an open mind. Christianity and the community of church can have some very positive effects on people. However I think the cost in terms of intellectual freedom is too high. For me though what is true is ultimately more important than what works.
why defend the WT anti-Trinitarian view if you do not believe in the existence or God?
I am in a position that is unusual but by no means unique. I have lived and studied both WT and christian life and doctrine and understand both quite intimately. I am an apostate from both world views. I despise the borg with a passion and I think they are wrong about just about everything. However I think it is a mistake to go from skepticism to cynicism. Just because the WT teaches something does not make it automatically wrong. Starting from a biblical perspective there are at least two things which the WT are on at least just as firm a foundation as christianity. I believe that is the doctrines of hell and trinity.
Of course my personal view is that all supernatural belief is a delusion but I don't think that disqualifies me from sharing my knowledge and experience when somebody asks about doctrine.
I think it is a mistake for somebody who is leaving the borg to assume that since the WT is wrong then mainstream christianity must be right. Too often I have seen people who have developed good critical thinking skills during their exit from the WT just surrender those in order to be accepted by a church family. I know - I did that. I believed the heart of the gospel with a passion (no pun intended) but I found that a whole package of other doctrines were included in the deal of being part of the new community of faith.
I believe that the similarities between the WT and many evangelical christian groups are greater than the differences - no disrespect intended
Cofty
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Terry
1. Sayings attributed to Jesus
2. Letters from a former persecutor who claims Jesus "appeared to him" and chose him. (Saul/Paul)
3.Good stories with a biography attached (Gospels)
4.Arguments with heretics
5.Official government-backed "orthodoxy"
6.A concrete canon
7.More heretics, versions, translations, interpretations and layers added
8.A Universal Church
Now look at the above list. This is Christianity by accretions.
At each stage of belief comes views and opinions.
In the early stages it was mostly Jewish opinions.
After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Diaspora a greco-pagan gentile opinion layered in.
Each time these stories were retold (and later recopied or redacted) another FILTER could reframe the "meaning".
9.Loss of original texts, manuscripts, autographs
10. Copying, recension, reinterpretation, re-translation, versioning
11.Church Authority cracks down and destroys competing versions and competing copies
What are we left with but an evolution of thought, opinion and interpretation over a slow metamorphing of OFFICIAL TEXT?
In other words, what?
We CANNOT know. Sorry, we just cannot know.
No matter what stage of Christianity we focus on we are always absent the actual provenance of custody for a TRUE Christian teaching.
Who had it? When did they possess it? Who did they transmit it to? How do we prove it?
The text is all we have now and it has more layers of accretion than an onion. The universal church (CATHOLIC CHURCH) leans more on their magisterium and tradition than the text.
Protestants gutted the church authority and played fast and loose with the canon.
Each and every time a person (or persons) translated or copied a text THEY EDITED, FILTERED AND INTERPRETED what replaced the text before them. Something novel appeared in place of what went before.
Too many transitional layers of interpretation stand between us and ACTUAL TEACHING.
We cannot know. We simply cannot know.
IF there was an actual person named Jesus (Yeshua) or a composite figure--we cannot know.
That this Jesus taught specific things which were not only divine but perfectly preserved---we cannot know.
That the message was important and universal and immutable---that we can know! It wasn't immutable! We know that because it CHANGED over time.
The beliefs of the early church corrupted into Catholic doctrines of veneration of Mary, Saints, images (icons), rituals, pageantry, etc. is beyond question.
If pure worship cannot be preserved over time why would text be any different. In for a penny; in for a pound.
Who Jesus was in relation to the Jewish understanding of their tribal deity is unknowable.
To argue or interpret otherwise is a flight of fancy.
No preserved and uncorrupt text with chain-of-custody provenance exists to demonstrate who is who and what is what.
It is all pretentious nonsense parading as though it were fact!
Nobody knows.
Nobody can know.
We only have people who insist they DO know and will make you wrong if you have an opinion that differs.
Foolish game to play all way round.
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Chalam
Hi cofty,
Many thanks for your responses :)
However I think the cost in terms of intellectual freedom is too high. Is intellectuality and faith basically incompatible? Many atheists/evolutionists would say yes but many of us don't, even some very influential scientests. Can I recommened a book by one? The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief by Francis Collins ( Paperback - 21 May 2007) Buy new: £8.99 £5.46 24 new from £3.25 4 used from £3.28 Get it by Wednesday, Feb 17 if you order in the next 2 hours and choose express delivery. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Delivery.
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Dr Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, is one of the world's leading scientists, working at the cutting edge of the study of DNA, the code of life. Yet he is also a man of unshakable faith in God. How does he reconcile the seemingly unreconcilable? In THE LANGUAGE OF GOD he explains his own journey from atheism to faith, and then takes the reader on a stunning tour of modern science to show that physics, chemistry and biology -- indeed, reason itself -- are not incompatible with belief. His book is essential reading for anyone who wonders about the deepest questions of all: why are we here? How did we get here? And what does life mean? For me though what is true is ultimately more important than what works. My own perspective is that what is true is what works and conversely, what is false doesn't. There are plenty of "solutions" out there, spiritual and non spiritual, get rich quick schemes, healthy diets, secrets of happiness etc. but none of them usually deliver or last if they do.
Just because the WT teaches something does not make it automatically wrong.
I agree in one sense, on the surface. I agree with my JW friends on a lot of things. However, the spirit of the WT is totally wrong. The foundation of the WT is sinking sand. There is one foundation but the WT is not build on it and neither are the lives of JWs 1 Corinthians 3:11
Starting from a biblical perspective there are at least two things which the WT are on at least just as firm a foundation as christianity. I believe that is the doctrines of hell and trinity.
I am sure the roots of this lie in the WT falsehood.
I don't know if you watched the videos in this thread The Trinity, the biblical case, clear and simple.
Else these links that LWT posted? http://www.waltermartin.com/jehwit.html#resurr
As for Hell, I can't see that anyone can read the words of Jesus and come up with the same conclusion as the WT unless of course they have been influenced by the WT Matthew 18:8-9 Luke 16:22-24 Mark 9:47-49 Revelation 20:10-15
Of course my personal view is that all supernatural belief is a delusion but I don't think that disqualifies me from sharing my knowledge and experience when somebody asks about doctrine.
I think if you are true to yourself then you shouldn't enter into theologocial discussions regrading true doctrine because you don't believe in God. Theology is the study of God after all. The atheist's position should be that theology is a waste of time as God doesn't exists.
I think it is a mistake for somebody who is leaving the borg to assume that since the WT is wrong then mainstream christianity must be right.
From what I have seen, this largely isn't the case. ExJWs are generally very cautious about what they dive into, post WT.
Too often I have seen people who have developed good critical thinking skills during their exit from the WT just surrender those in order to be accepted by a church family. I know - I did that. I believed the heart of the gospel with a passion (no pun intended) but I found that a whole package of other doctrines were included in the deal of being part of the new community of faith.
I am still interested in your experience of being born agian. Maybe you could put it into words or describe how it affected you life?
I believe that the similarities between the WT and many evangelical christian groups are greater than the differences - no disrespect intended.
I think that should be your postion, as an atheist. Of course, my own belief is that atheism is akin to JWism, neither are the truth.
Blessings,
Stephen
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designs
Stephen, the above comments from you are a perfect example of someone deluded by a particular religious interpretation. Its funny, even the modern Fundamentalist, as much as they try to hold on to the Creeds, is evolving, slowly but perceptively.They are leaving behind the gothic images of God and heaven and hell painted on Cathedrals throughout Europe. Gone is slavery that they once promoted because it was thought to be biblical. More are leaving the notion of the literal days of creation. And on it goes as it should.
Why is this evolution taking place- Knowledge, science, and the age of reason. All Belief systems evolve. Someday you will look back on something you read now as literal and will hopefully smile at your progress.
'Do a little good each day'
Shalom aleichem
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cattails
Poor Cofty is being attacked and he's been made to be the bad guy...
anyway that's how I see it.
Also "Hebrews 1:8-9." There's no "O" in Hebrew, there's no commas in the original line in Hebrew. The word God could be referring to it being the throne, the seat of power for you is God, since the next line says, "your God", how can he be the same? That's the problem with the Trinity it isn't logical that two are differentiated and yet they are the same.
When Jesus said that "the Father is greater than I" it makes it unambiguously clear that there was a time when the persons of the Father and the Son were not equal but one was higher, if this is the case the Trinity couldn't be in force since it calls for all three to be equal and eternally the same.
We humans can't really fathom the singularity of God to the extent required to know how exactly the Father and the only begotten Son are united. It's like trying to produce an Einstein condensate, you have to go where no human has gone before. But only by explanation from the Son we come to understand the Father as Jesus said.
If the word isn't in the Bible how is it Christians need to follow this teaching blindly? If it was so important to belief and salvation it would have been treated with more importance in the Scriptures, instead the Scriptures don't mention the word at all. Isn't that the problem some have with the name Jehovah not being used in the Greek Scriptures, and yet we know that the Greek Scriptures quote from the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures where the name is present.
Jesus Christ and him crucified and resurrected, that's the foundation of Christian faith and the promise of salvation. The Trinity belief isn't necessary for salvation then, according to Scripture.
BTW the whole thread so far has only been dealing with TWO persons not THREE, so where's the Holy Spirit in the proof texts that don't prove much about the Trinity above?
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leavingwt
If the word isn't in the Bible how is it Christians need to follow this teaching blindly? If it was so important to belief and salvation it would have been treated with more importance in the Scriptures, instead the Scriptures don't mention the word at all. Isn't that the problem some have with the name Jehovah not being used in the Greek Scriptures, and yet we know that the Greek Scriptures quote from the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures where the name is present.
Most Christians alive today reject Sola Scriptura. So, your appeal in the paragraph above will relevant only to a minority.
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PSacramento
FuzzyPaul makes all the correct points.
It is crucial to understand : "The virgin will conceive, have a son, and name him Immanuel ." (Isaiah 7:14 HCSB) "they will name Him Immanuel , which is translated "God is with us."
The fact that Jesus IS called God shows that this prophecy is true, for Jesus is indeed called God and God was indeed with us.
In the form of his Own Son, God incarnate in his Son.
Paul referres to Jesus's divinty and his deity on more than one account and NEVER is it stated that Jesus was an angel, any angel, anywhere in the NT.
Whether you believe that Jesus is God is irrelevant to the fact that no where is it mentioned that Jesus was EVER an angel ( in the angelic being sense).
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PSacramento
When Jesus said that "the Father is greater than I" it makes it unambiguously clear that there was a time when the persons of the Father and the Son were not equal but one was higher, if this is the case the Trinity couldn't be in force since it calls for all three to be equal and eternally the same.
The Trinity states and equality of essense, of nature.
At their essence, their very nature, God, Jesus and the HS are equal for that are all "god", they don't have equal roles, but they are equal in their essence.
Jesus Christ and him crucified and resurrected, that's the foundation of Christian faith and the promise of salvation. The Trinity belief isn't necessary for salvation then, according to Scripture
.Correct, the trinity is NOT a doctrine that is needed for salvation it is simply man's way of trying to understand the nature of God.
The HS is God's HS ( and Jesus's of course) and as such it is ever present, the issue in the WT is IF the HS has a "personality" or only a "energy force".
