What is the greatest act of love God has done? Interresting question for non-trinitarians

by teel 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • teel
    teel

    Currently I am not taking any of sides, but here's an interresting topic, I would be interrested what can an anti-trinitarian answer to this.

    I found this article here: Has the Jehovah's Witness' god performed the greatest act of love?

    In a nutshell: John 15:3 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends". Jesus laid down his life. Jehovah (or generally the Father) did not. Yet "God is love" ( 1 John 4:16 ), so there should be no act of love greater than what the Father has done. So what has Jehovah (or the Father) done that's greater than what Jesus did? For a trinitarian this is a non-issue: God indeed laid down his life for his friends.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Interesting line of argumentation!

    If the father and the son are ontologically different, then the son is greater than the father by Witness reasoning!

    BTS

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    That's a devastating line of reasoning, Teel.

    For the sake of accuracy, and accuracy only, that's John 15:13.

    I don't embrace the Trinity, but I believe Jesus of Nazareth is Jehovah God.

    Sylvia

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    JWs get around that arguement by proclaiming God's giving up his son was the greatest act of love. It's all just a game of semantics anyways.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    bttt

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    I don't know if this is the best chapter to use when promoting the Trinity. The whole chapter Jesus is teaching his disciples, and throughout it he speaks about the nature of Himself, and that of his Father. He speaks of himself as being seperate, yet working in unison. This may be the JW side of speaking, but I fail to see the point in this question.

    John 15:1 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

    verse 5 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

    verse 8 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    verse 9, 10 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

    verse 21 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.

    verse 23, 24 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

    Throughout the chapter, Jesus teaches in a manner showing his submission to His Father. At the same time, he's teaching his disciples about love, and that there is no love greater than laying one's life on the line for his brother. He's speaking from the perspective of someone being on the Earth. Speaking to those who would have to live and die on the Earth, and how they should conduct themselves.....on the Earth.

    As far as God is love, reading that chapter in context makes doesnt confuse anything. 1 John 4:9, "By this the love of God was manifested 1 a in us, that b God has sent His 2 only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

    10 In this is love, a not that we loved God, but that b He loved us and sent His Son to be c the propitiation for our sins.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    snowbird That's a devastating line of reasoning, Teel.

    I agree with Sylvia!

    A similar reasoning in this thread I started a while back The Trinity, judgement day and the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses...

    I don't embrace the Trinity, but I believe Jesus of Nazareth is Jehovah God.

    Sylvia, you just embraced two thirds of it! :)

    Now, who is the Holy Spirit? What's He all about? You need to focus on Him next...

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    I have been thinking about this verse for a few days but this thread seems a good place to mention it :)

    Acts 20:28 (New International Version)

    28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    Stephen, you keep making things complicated for me. I read your last post at work, so I looked it up when I got home, and again, the NWT has Acts 20:28 rendered differently. Depending on what translation is accurate the entire context of the verse is changed.

    (Acts 20:28) 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. New World Translation.

    Then there is the King James Version.......... Acts 20:28 (King James Version) 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    One can make the argument there is a case of semantics involved, but this goes beyond semantics. Either one translation is right, or wrong. I'm still not convinced of the Trinity, however this is one of those moments when I look negatively at the WTS and give some points to the Trinitarians.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello MLE,

    The NWT admits its own deception with the square brackets denoting the inserted word, "Son". They lead the reader away from Jesus being God and them being quite seperate, God and "a god". Adding to the scripture is expressely warned against Proverbs 30:5-6 Revelation 22:18

    See here for a selection of renderings of this verse, none of which add any notion of the [Son's] blood to the verse.

    New International Version(©1984)
    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

    New Living Translation(©2007)
    "So guard yourselves and God's people. Feed and shepherd God's flock--his church, purchased with his own blood--over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.

    English Standard Version(©2001)
    Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

    New American Standard Bible(©1995)
    "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    International Standard Version(©2008)
    Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to be shepherds of God's church, which he acquired with his own blood.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
    Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as bishops to be shepherds for God's church which he acquired with his own blood.

    King James Bible
    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    American King James Version
    Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

    American Standard Version
    Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

    Bible in Basic English
    Give attention to yourselves, and to all the flock which the Holy Spirit has given into your care, to give food to the church of God, for which he gave his blood.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Darby Bible Translation
    Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.

    English Revised Version
    Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Weymouth New Testament
    "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood.

    World English Bible
    Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.

    Young's Literal Translation
    'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

    Click here for the original Greek, commentaries and more and decide for yourself.

    http://bible.cc/acts/20-28.htm

    Blessings,

    Stephen

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