Calvinists: Why I Can't I Choose to be Saved?

by leavingwt 51 Replies latest jw friends

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  leavingwt

  To me, strict 5-point Calvinism makes God more evil than Satan could ever be with all his power.

  You may have opened a can of worms.
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  Chalam

  Hi LWT,

  I appreciate that it's not simple, but I think you'll agree that from the perspective of the outsider, this is a crucial/central issue.

  Personally, I think it is a bit of a red herring! I do not mean that to be inflamatory, I am just trying to point you in the right direction and avoid pitfalls and wrong turns :)

  Mark 10:13-16 (Contemporary English Version)

  Jesus Blesses Little Children

  13 Some people brought their children to Jesus so that he could bless them by placing his hands on them. But his disciples told the people to stop bothering him.

  14 When Jesus saw this, he became angry and said, "Let the children come to me! Don't try to stop them. People who are like these little children belong to the kingdom of God. 15 I promise you that you cannot get into God's kingdom, unless you accept it the way a child does." 16 Then Jesus took the children in his arms and blessed them by placing his hands on them.

  Footnotes:

  1. Mark 10:14 People who are like these little children belong to the kingdom of God: Or "The kingdom of God belongs to people who are like these little children."

  You need to become like these kids. You can try to get to grips with the difficult theological conundrums later but first enter the Kingdom! All you need is the faith like this man

  Luke 23:42-43 (New International Version)

  42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

  43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

  Anyhow, check out Mark's vid. For sure, he has done his homework and you should gleen some insights. Let me know what you think.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
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  leavingwt

  Personally, I think it is a bit of a red herring!

  I think I understand what you mean. Which is to say, if a person is even interested in such topics, there is no need to conclude that he is not 'chosen'. On the contrary, he should be thrilled to have heard the good news.

  To the outsider, however, the concept of anyone -- man, woman or child -- being destined to spend eternity in Hell, is difficult to grasp. Moreover, we should not shrink back from discussing the facts/doctrines, etc. We should not fear the truth, whatever that may be.

  -LWT
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  Chalam

  Hi BTS,

  So what does one do with numerous verses like these?

  Matthew 22:14 (English Standard Version)

  14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

  Revelation 17:14 (English Standard Version)

  14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

  Romans 8:29-30 (English Standard Version)

  29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

  Ephesians 1:4-5 (New International Version)

  4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

  1 Peter 2:9 (New International Version)

  9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

  BTW, I am likely not a Calvanist in the strictest "five point" sense either. However, I firmly believe we cannnot gloss over predestination.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  thomas15

  As chalam has mentioned, there are many passages of the Bible that teach predestination. There are other passages that teach total depravity. While most Calvinists are "reformed" and or covanent in their theology, I'm not as I hold to the dispensationalist view. So this makes me somewhat of an odd-ball in calvinist circles. What Calvinism teaches is that man is totally spiritually dead and it is because God who predestines who will be saved and who will not, works in the dead man's heart to bring him to God. The work is all of God, man can take no credit in his salvation. This is one of the differences between salvation by "works" (like that taught by the WT) and salvation by grace through faith.

  I know that this is not a popular view as the natural man is desprate to have a part in his/her own redemption. Many times on this forum I see people rejecting the WT take on things based on their personal belief that a loving God would not inflict judgement on those whom they see as innocent people. While I totally reject the teaching of the WT, my reading and study of the Bible inclines me in the direction of calvin.

  If anyone is still listening to me at this point, I would like to mention that is a question that I have spent much time in study. I have approx. 12 systematic theology books (or sets of books), the exact number depending on your definition sytematic theology books. Four (4) of them are full blown Arminian in nature. So it would be a strain to state that I haven't given the Arminian camp due process. And, I can state truthfully that I'm open to anyone who can convince me of the errors of calvin.

  Finally, I appologize to anyone who thinks I'm a twit or self-righteous. I haven't been around much lately and try not to impose my beliefs on anyone. I have said it before and will repeat it again, the fact that you who have been mauled by the WT are even remotely interested in discussing the Bible or God is very impressive to me.

  Take care,

  Tom
• 

  Perry

  You may have opened a can of worms.

  There is more than one way to skin a worm. No unskinnable worms worms here...those are only in hell where "the worm dieth not". This worm can be skinned.

  I will give you my take on this in simple terms....which of course is the correct one. It seems so simple now looking back. All a person has to do is reconcile two points of view. One point of view sees eternity as a whole, the beginning and the end at the same time. This view is what the great I AM sees, the Alpha and the Omega. God exists outside of time. Scientists agree that space, time and matter all had a beginning and came into existence at once. So we are talking about a point of view that is very different in character than ours.... the ultimate reality. On the other hand, our p.o.v. is fastened to a certain time and space.

  With that in mind it's EASY to see how God can know the elect while at the same time extending the invitation to ALL. Repeatedly the term "whosoever" is used. So the invitation is open to all.

  Now, the question is: Is man so totally corrupt that he cannot even choose God (on his own)? I believe this ABSOLUTELY TO BE TRUE. (Having lunch with Six of Nine at a Hooters Restaurant proves this, as does my early driving record as well)

  Even with mountains of evidence of lying, stealing, adulteries etc, etc, etc, the average person sees himself as a "good" person....even as when his neighbor does the exact same thing, he labels that one a bad person. Man is in a state of blindness:

  1. (Condition of man prior to being born again) Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

  2. (Condition of man after the re-birth) Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

  Notice the lack of choice in the first condition. This was all part of the fall of Adam...when man's spirit went lame and his (intellignet) flesh took control of the animal. Likewise, notice the existence of choice in the second condition of the animal. When Adam disconnected from the Source of Life, he and his descendants started to decay and could essentially only see themselves and make excuses for themselves before the largess of God.

  NOW, we thread the needle:

  John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

  Initially at least, it's not that man won't come....the problem is that he can't. Man is severely depraved.... but not totally like the Calvinists teach.

  Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

  Here's an example of both forces at work:

  
  Matther 22: 8- Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
  9 Go ye therefore into the highways , and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
  10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
  11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
  12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
  13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

  Here a man tried to get in without a wedding garment. He probably entered through another door and not the one where the garments were being passed out. Jesus said, "I am the door". Only those who enter by the "Wicket Gate" are invited to stay.

  The Bible teaches that man has freewill and God chooses salvation for us. Scripture does teach both. Man can choose Jesus, and God predestines men to eternal life with Him. I believe that he pursues certain people until they give in ("saved with difficulty"). Others may need little or no pursuit other than the smallest of exposure to the calling in the scriptures.

  Jesus' selection of His disciples is a very interesting example of God choosing and man "making the decision."

  Mattherw 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
  19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
  20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

  So the following can be deduced:

  Man is at the same time a depraved moral creature, and one who passes judgment on others for crimes he himself is guilty of and is therefore liable to Judgment.

  Man cannot come to God on his own power, he must be called first.

  If a man hasn't been called, I believe he can interrupt this destiny and ask God to call him. I believe God will have mercy on him and call him. Jesus said, "ye have not because ye ask not".

  Not all are called....only many. God is not under obligation to call any, since we are his enemies.

  Once called, God will not force someone to take the final step to exchange his will for the will of God. Some don't, out of their own free will.

  However, ALL will be chosen that make this exchange. (Put on the Wedding Garment)

  So there. I have succeeded in making both the Calvinists and the Armenians mad at me!
• 

  BurnTheShips

  So there. I have succeeded in making both the Calvinists and the Armenians mad at me!

  Nah! We just hate your parrot!

  BTS
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  Perry

  Who are you talking to? Me or my dummy perch?
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  PSacramento

  One can be predestined for soemthing, IF he makes the right choices....

  ;)
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  leavingwt

  Perry -- Thank you.