THE FINAL VERDICT IS DELIVERED!!! (page 3)

slimboyfat

I sometimes feel sorry for people like Ronnie Hunter because I think they are unaware of the problems with 607 BCE, the false predictions Witnesses have made and so on. I like to think that most honest Witnesses when confronted with the facts would change their minds. But by their reactions during the final installment it seems Ronnie and the other elders have heard about these issues but are not concerned by them. In that case they have only themselves to blame for contining to spend their lives in the service of an organization that teaches rubbish.

slimboyfat

For me the low point for the elder (whoever he was, I think he has an English accent) was when he asked you what you personal belief on partaking at the memorial is, and you said you didn't want to discuss it, and he came back in a menacing sort of tone with:

"Well you called this meeting, we're here to help. We're looking for you to help us." (30 minutes in)

It was the local elders who initiated the original hearing. You were appealing the decision. As far as I can understand, and they did not seem to dispute, you did not go running after them to tell them where you disagree with the Witnesses. I think he regretted the comment after he made it because he recoiled a bit. But it did reveal what they were really thinking. Perhaps what he really meant when he said "we're looking for you to help us" was "hurry up and incriminate yourself so we can be done with this". Anything else he saw as time wasting.

iknowall558

I agree with you Slimboy. They already had made up thier minds about Matt and I'm sure they just wanted confirmation from him that he was an apostate.

The guy doing all the talking is Ian Shanks. Bit of a smoothie, with a perma-tan, unmarried and possible closet gay.

StoneWall

Matt,

I think you did an excellent job on keeping your composure when trying to reason with them and great job on the

recording as well. To anyone that has never been in a judicial committee and wondered how they operate and what

goes on in there, I would highly recommend that they listen to this.

The thing that will stick out most of all to me is the way you ended it. Suggesting that they read 1 Corinthians 4:1-5.

That had to be the most appropriate scripture I've seen utilized in regards to the circumstances.

I honestly laughed out loud when I read it in the New World Translation (JW's translation)

I bet at least one of those Elders out of curiousity went and looked it up like I did.

That was indeed the icing on the cake so to speak. That one scripture told them what you thought of "their judgement".

Once again I'd like to commend you on a job well done, because I know it wasn't easy having to go through/endure all

that. When people ask me about courageous people or someone that is willing to stand up for theirself, your name will

most surely be on my list. :)

Best wishes and regards on your new life (the real life)

StoneWall

leavingwt

I like to think that most honest Witnesses when confronted with the facts would change their minds.

It's safe to say that you and I reacted this way. However, in my experience, very few JWs are prepared to react in such a way. This shocked me -- at first -- but Hassan's books explained to me exactly why this is usually the case. A rejection of the facts is what should be expected.

Reality/facts/data/Scripture have nothing to do with their beliefs, if they're victims of Thought Reform.

For the JW who wants nothing more than to be loyal and live in a Paradise, any inconsistencies/discrepancies -- facts, as you call them -- simply frighten him. He doesn't' even want to entertain the possibility that his system could be wrong. Just these thoughts of questions or doubts trigger guilt within him. These thoughts trigger fear of demons, fear of losing everlasting life, fear of finding himself outside Jehovha's protective arrangement. Just considering these facts is considered disloyalty.

This forum is chock full of stories of people who reacted negatively, after being calmly and lovingly introduced to the facts. We never lose hope, however.

Hassan details quite clearly how the mind must first be receptive. To get to this point, he recommends discussing Fears and Phobias with individuals. We already know they are afraid of "apostate" literature. The challenge is to eliminate this fear. Then -- as you say -- they can accept what are no more than stone, cold facts.

leavingwt

slimboyfat,

Let me add that this reality doesn't speak to their HONESTY, in my opinion. I was once just like these guys. If you truly believe you're doing God's will, there is no limit to what you'll do, basically. God sets the rules. If God wants you to be an unloving a$$hole, you have no choice but to go along.

I've often said of my former JW friends and family, "If they knew what I know, they'd leave today". But, they don't know these things.

-LWT

sacdfan

Matt,

You rock the box!! And I agree with Stonewall, that scripture in 1st Corinthians chap 4 is dynamite - particularly verse 5.

How can any JW think that judicial committees and disfellowshipping are for true Christians - didn't Jesus say not to judge? Those elders sound so smug - where was their compassion and love?

I hope I am as courageous and dignified as Matt when my time comes.

sacdfan

passwordprotected

Ronnie Hunter knows the script re. 607. This isn't the first time he's been involved with a case like this. He's had it consistently and calmly pointed out to him, along with many other Watchtower errors. I don't think he's deserving of sympathy for doing what he did in this case.

The Scottish guy doing most of the talking is Martin Benzie, career-JW. He's the chairman of the appeal committee. The other Scottish guy, the beligerent one, is Philip Jones, career-JW and MTS-grad (he didn't take up his assignment afterwards, but prefered to return to his home congregation, where he lived with his mum. Interesting story; he got married in his 40s. He and his bride didn't have their own home, so he went back to live with his mum and she went back to live with her parents until they got their own place...), regular pioneer. The English-Mid-Atlantic sounding guy (he's lived in Scotland since his early teens, yet still clutches the strange accent picked up in Australia, 40 years on) is Ian Shanks, career-JW, single, lives with his parents, erstwhile CO.

All 3 on the appeal committee have served, either as stand-ins or permanent, Circuit Overseers. All 3 are regular pioneers.

So, Matt's first committee disfellowshipped him for believing Jesus should be worshipped (look this up in the Reasoning Book). The appeal committee upheld this even though Matt showed them that it's in the Society's legal charter that Jesus should be worshippped (it's also in the Bible, but since when did that matter?). The final decision taken to disfellowship was based on Matt not showing honour to the 'glorious ones'. Who are the 'glorious ones' in this scenario? The elders on the appeal committee.

What did we think of Martin Benzie discussing John 6 and the whole "where else do we go" topic? Notice how Matt says that it's Jesus we go to and how Martin's next question - without missing a beat - was "and who is Jesus using on earth today?", as if that was at any time part of the discussion between Jesus and Peter.
What did we think about Phillips ascertion that the Gospel isn't about salvation but about Jehovah's universal sovereignty (a phrase found nowhere in the Bible)?
What do we think of Ronnie Moffatt's (chairman of the initial committee) mumbled utterance of "sorry" as Matt was leaving the Kingdom Hall?

isaacaustin

Passwordprotected, long no talk. How are you doing?

Quillsky

Listened to the whole thing. Very eloquent, Matt. And how extremely sad for your family that your own brother was dragged into this mess.

The one elder keeps on countering your assertion that you are not trying to persuade anybody, with...... "Apostasy is stubbornly holding views..." What a cult. Surely you should be judged by your actions and your words, not interrogated in an inquisition as to your private unspoken beliefs and questions.

Imagine if every Witness were called in to answer what you called a Q&A about their beliefs. Half of all JW's, those that aren't completely braindead, would be DF'ed.

At around 54:00...... "With ALL THESE PERSONAL VIEWS that you have contrary to our preaching of the good news of the kingdom, those DETAILS about Jesus, ETCETERA....." And this after you've made it COMPLETELY clear that you're not going to give them any of your personal views, that it's private, and especially details of your views, that you were burned at your JC by revealing your personal questions and views. They were trying so hard to pry open your brain, because they had nothing on your actions. What a clear agenda these men entered the meeting with.

Congratulations on sticking to your guns. Sorry to see on your blog you have marriage issues at the same time as all this is happening. Keep strong Matt, for you and for your boys.

THE FINAL VERDICT IS DELIVERED!!!

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