The Prosperity Gospel---Your Opinion?

by minimus 32 Replies latest jw friends

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  minimus

  So Terry Cloth, Pentecostals are a cult?
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  minimus

  I miss Tammy Faye & Jim Bakker.
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  Brocephus

  As a Christian I am confronted with the prosperity Gospel often. I simply tell them.... "Explain the book of Job" He did everything right and good took it all on a wager with the devil. That usually shuts them up. The point is, yes God does often bless us with abundance but he never let's us forget we are subject to his will. Other words, we aren't entitled to sh*t and he'll check that ass whenever he wants.
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  minimus

  Well said, Brocephus!

  Brocephus, I LOVE that name!!
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  Confession

  I'm no longer a Christian, but I wrote a blog post last year about this subject... Sorry for the length; I've actually cut out a few segments. :o)

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  That said, the argument usually ensues when someone suggests that the Bible or Christianity can promote the accumulation of material wealth. I approach it somewhat cautiously; I don’t want to start an argument. The truth is, I believe wealth in all areas of life is a good thing, though it might come with accompanying challenges. And I understand that some may choose to embrace some Bible teachings as valuable, while dismissing others as ancient dogma or possible misunderstandings. I don’t consider it any of my business to tell them such a policy is wrong. But…when they actually propound that Christianity, as expressed in the New Testament, promotes material abundance, I just can’t seem to let it go. I spent an enormous percentage of my life studying the Bible. And while it’s true that part of that time involved being indoctrinated with the tenets of a particular sect, it’s also true that I became very familiar with the scriptures in general. Here are some verses that come to mind…

  “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” [Matthew 6:19-21, NIV]

  “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.” [Matthew 6:24 & 25, NIV]

  People acknowledge these scriptures. But they suggest that Jesus was not condemning wealth; he was instead merely trying to encourage a proper perspective of it. Quicker than Joe Vitale can come up with a new marketing concept, they will say, “And remember: it’s not MONEY that is “the root of all evil,” but the LOVE of money!”

  It’s really funny that I find myself in these conversations. I no longer consider myself a Christian–although I certainly respect the religious beliefs of others and acknowledge some of the positive qualities I now possess as probably coming from my Christian upbringing. I suppose it has to do with observing people who are (I believe) deceiving themselves.

  Some will spend all of their time dissecting the many scriptures that clearly discourage the pursuit of material wealth, and try to find little snippets here and there that might, in some indirect way, prove their point. And if they can’t find anything substantive in the actual Christian scriptures, they’ll pop back to the Old Testament for a nugget about God promising to “multiply Abraham’s seed,” which to them means he wants us to have lots of money. Ask them about other Old Testament teachings, which allow for the owning of slaves and putting others to death for working on the sabbath, and they’ll smirk dismissively. And they will SWIM past verse-after-verse, which expressly dissuades the faithful from pursuing riches, to find anything that can make them feel better about doing so.

  I recognize that Christianity, as expressed in the Bible, does not prohibit a person from having material wealth, but my point is that there is no way an honest-hearted person can examine the New Testament and come away with the idea that Jesus Christ wanted us to pursue it. Neither can you avoid the fact that, at nearly every opportunity, he strongly warned against it.

  There is the account at Luke, chapter 16, in which Jesus provides a parable about a rich man and a poor man named Lazarus. It’s one of those stories that people scratch their heads over, but the gist is that the rich guy went to a place of fiery torment and the poor guy “was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham.” The rich man appeals to Abraham, but is told that he received his good things while on earth, but poor Lazarus evil things. Now Lazarus was being comforted, but the rich man was in agony, and not a darn thing could be done about it. The only thing the rich guy can think of is to warn his still-living brothers. He wants Lazarus to go and caution them, suggesting that seeing a dead man would prove an effective warning. But Abraham says, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

  Why is the rich man being punished? The account doesn’t say that he had been evil; only that he had “dressed in purple and fine linen, and feasted sumptuously every day.” It also mentions that the poor man laid at the rich man’s gate, longing to satisfy his hunger from “what fell from the rich man’s table.” We can certainly conclude that the rich man was being punished–not for being rich, but for failing to give to the poor from his riches. Fair enough. But we still cannot deny that Jesus is, yet again, speaking negatively of wealth. And we certainly can’t use this perspective to conclude that He wants Christians to pursue monetary wealth, can we?

  Maybe you can be a Christian and be wealthy. Fine. But you can’t use the New Testament of the Bible to suggest that Jesus encourages you to pursue wealth. Paul, who wrote more New Testament books than any other writer, indicated that the seeking of wealth was a trap.

  “People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction… But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.” [1 Timothy 6:9-11, NIV]

  What is the Bible message about the desire for wealth? Is it that we should go for it–as long as we proceed with caution? No. It distinctly instructs Christians to ‘flee from it’! And it’s kind of ironic, because just as the aforementioned rich man’s brothers would not listen to a risen dead man on this subject, many Christians today will not listen to Jesus, whom they believe has risen from the dead, and who is the leader of their own religion. They keep trying to find ways to justify somehow, some way, that it’s okay to focus on material wealth–and still be a zealous Christian.

  “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” [Matthew 19:24, NIV]

  “Ahhh, but it doesn’t say it’s impossible, now does it?!”

  Sigh… To be clear, I want you to have wealth. Emotional wealth, spiritual wealth, relationship wealth, and even material wealth… If, like me, you simply enjoy reflecting upon and discussing what’s in the Bible, more power to you! If you believe that, among many good things, the Bible may also contain teachings that are based upon misunderstandings–or that have been altered by possibly well-intentioned humans over the years–but that it’s still something sent to you by God, I understand. Further, if you believe in a form of Christianity that does not require the use of the Bible, I nod respectfully. But, if you consider the Bible to be the inspired Word of God and the final word regarding the Christian faith, to ignore all it has to say about wealth, while still choosing to believe that biblical Christianity encourages the pursuit of money, is an exercise in self-delusion.
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  Chalam

  This sums up the prosperity message.

  Genesis 17:6

  6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.

  Galatians 3:14

  14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

  I have no problem with these two verses and what they promise.

  The poverty message was preached long and hard back in the day, majoring on blessed are the poor etc. Looks like they missed the real message Matthew 5:3

  God likes to bless His kids, not spoil them. I don't expect to be a millionaire but I don't expect to be broke either.

  There are warnings for those who misuse the ministry for financial gain 1 Timothy 6:51 Peter 5:2 2 Peter 2:3

  Blessings,

  Stephen
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  Terry

  So Terry Cloth, Pentecostals are a cult?

  Well, duh! Sure they are.

  It says so right here: http://www.eaec.org/cults/unitedpentecostal.htm

  Cult Beliefs:

  • They believe that the ability to speak in tongues is a necessary indication of a valid religious conversion. They deny the legitimacy of the conversion of "born again" Christians from other denominations where tongues are rarely, if ever, spoken. "No tongues means no salvation." So, for example, they would essentially regard all Southern Baptists as unsaved, even though they have repented of their sins and trusted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The Bible never says that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation; in the New Testament, it is recorded that some people began speaking in tongues, but others did not. Did the disciples/apostles speak in tongues when they were saved? They spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, but they were already saved through faith long before that event.

  • They share with other "Oneness Pentecostals" the practice of baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ only. Jesus Christ specifically said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19); any deviation from this commandment is unacceptable. But the UPC will point to Acts 2:38 and many other passages to give validity to their argument. So who has more authority, Jesus or the apostles?

  • They believe that water baptism is essential to salvation. But Jesus did not say so in His conversation with Nicodemus. (John 3:3-8)

  • They reject the traditional concept of the Godhead and do not believe that the Godhead is composed of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They believe that God is a unity, a Spirit, who has manifested himself in three roles to humanity. An analogy would be a single man who plays three different roles of father, son, and husband -- either sequentially or at the same time. In doing so, they interpret the Bible incorrectly. It is true that the Godhead is one (1 John 5:7), but God exists in three separate and distinct personalities at the same time. Evidence of this is found when Jesus was baptized, the Holy Ghost came upon Him and the Father declared from heaven that this was his Son in whom he was well pleased. (Matthew 3:16-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22)

  • Have stated the aforementioned points, it is also necessary for them to believe there is no salvation outside of the United Pentecostal church.The Bible says there no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, not a church. (John 1:12; 3:1-8, Romans 10:8-13)
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  GLTirebiter

  On these shows though, the parishoners DO look good!

  I see at least two reasons for that.

  First, they have a target demographic and stick to it: people who already have tasted some success and want more, MORE, MORE! They aren't looking for new members at the rescue mission; they preach in the suburbs--not the slums.

  Second, it is just what Minimus called it: a show. Not everybody who's there will be on the camera, only those who project the desired image. Those who don't fit in won't be part of the show. They are selling a dream, and that vision is the only one you'll see. Does this remind you of another organization that likes to keep the congregation clean?
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  minimus

  I wouldn't call Pentecostalism a cult unless you choose to use the word broadly.

  GL, I agree that the camera angles have a lot to do with what "prosperity" looks like.
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  Think About It

  I wouldn't call Pentecostalism a cult unless you choose to use the word broadly.

  I've worked with them, known them, had many close friends, attended a few times when I was growing up and dealt with them extensively in FS. Pentecostals can be just as cultish.

  Think About It