"Cultish" is a bit different than being a "cult".
Think About It
The Prosperity Gospel---Your Opinion?
by minimus 32 Replies latest jw friends
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Brocephus
Chalam those verses are blessings, I didn't say God doesn't bless us or even want to do so. The "Prosperity Gospel" basically says don't expect to go out about make 2,000 dollars this month unless you give 200 to the church. You give the money (tithe) as an act of faith and then set back and wait for God to play financial consultant and give it back to you 10x. It's deeply flawed logic and theology.
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minimus
And yet there's a sucker born every minute!
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Brocephus
TD JAKES is a very popular pastor and has his church in my area. Here is a great example of the Prosperity Gospel being preached. It's all about getting stuff nothing to do with submitting ourselves to God's will or his glorification.
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Chalam
Hi Brocephus,
You give the money (tithe) as an act of faith and then set back and wait for God to play financial consultant and give it back to you 10x. It's deeply flawed logic and theology.
See what you make of this.
Malachi 3:8-12 (New International Version)
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.Blessings,
Stephen
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Brocephus
Chalam, yes this verse is used often to justify the tithe. I believe it is being taken out of context. First this is written to Ancient Israel. I would say the paying of the tithe was more like paying your income taxes than donating to your local church back then. Ancient Israel was a Theocracy. The tithe was used to support the government and the Levi class. The whole basis of Ancient Israel's government required everyone to do their part for the common defense and advance the nation. God was saying hey, if you don't pay your tithe (taxes) you are robbing me because you are taking away from your countrymen and brothers.
Contrast this with the book of Job, and what Jesus said about the tithe. As a Christian I have no choice but to critizize those who give only with the expectation of getting. Jesus didn't say the widow was dropping her two coins in because she was getting 20 back. He praised her offer as acceptable because it was from the heart. We could go all the way back to Cain and Able. God never appreciates an offering not from the heart. It can't be sincere if it is only to get something back. Even if you feel that God is blessing you like this, that is great. But to focus and teach it as doctrine is dangerous and a waste of time. Instead the focus should be on becoming more spiritual and getting closer to God and his love for us not just his material blessings.
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Brocephus
Please also understand exactly what the Prosperity Gospel is... I have heard and seen Pastor's say. Don't expect to go out and make any money this week unless you give me 10% of what you plan to make. It's even worse then the tithe. They arn't satisfied with 10% of what you made, they want 10% of what you hope to make!!!!!! I have no problem with someone giving 10-20-30% or whatever. It's the motive that counts, and I won't say there are not times when the needs of the church means it's time for folks to step up. I just don't by the Propserity Gospel it's almost like practicing magic spells the way some pastors get into it. It has nothing to do with worship to God.
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Terry
There is a doctrine called SUPEREROGATION.
Catholics would call it "laying up treasures in heaven."
We usually thing of human behavior in the following manner:
- actions that are good to do and bad not to do
- actions that are neither good to do nor bad not to do
- actions that are bad to do and good not to do
Supererogation is your heavenly bank account. The actions of Saints build up interest because they do MORE than they need to.
This allows the Church/God/Holy Spirit to use this interest ON BEHALF of others who need heavenly credit.
The Protestant variant on the above is to convince the believer that it is quid pro quo.
Whatever the believer does FOR THE CHURCH (i.e. the TV evangelist's ministry) accrues to the believer's heavenly account.
Except--instead of it being a specifically HEAVENLY account, it becomes the HERE and NOW wealth of the believer.
In other words, GOD WANTS YOU TO BE RICH!
You still give in order to get. But, doing it out of "faith" makes it okay.
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XJW4EVR
Terry, I really have to laugh. You have once again demonstrated your ability to, at best, broadbrush, or at worst, another revelation of utter ignorance of Christianity, and what it teaches. For the sake of clarity, Pentecostalism, is accepted as a part of historical Christian orthodoxy. Examples of orthodox Pentecostal denominations would be Calvary Chapel, The Assemblies of God, The Foursquare Church, The Church of God, and The Church of God in Christ.
Though Oneness sprung from the Azusa Street movement, as did the other Pentecostal denominations, United Pentecostalism, i.e., Oneness Pentecostalism, is not accepted as a part of the historical Christian orthodoxy. The reason is that they are modalistic in their theology proper. In other words, they believe that God puts on three masks (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) at differing times. Modalism has been labeled a heresy since about the 2nd century A.D.
Back to the original post, there have been a number of critiques of the prosperity gospel. Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hannegraf, Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur (both are very extreme), and recently the 3rd edition of Let The Nations Be Glad by John Piper (a more calm and loving approach) are some of a number of books that have been very critical of the prosperity movement. I for one was part of a church that was, and still is teaching prosperity. I eventually left that church because of this and other issues. I even thought of writing a paper on this issue. I even interviewed a number of prosperity pastors for it. However, my professor persuaded me that this was not the best outlet for that paper.
In talking to these pastors, many of whom graduated from Oral Roberts Univerity, I found that they sincerely believed that God intends for Christians to take the "wealth of the wicked" which was stored for "the righteous." When I asked them about the human tendancy for greed, they all downplayed it and stated that if the finances are freely given to the church, then greed is not a problem. I also asked about Jesus' poverty, and they all to a man, denied this. When I pointed out that Jesus had to borrow a donkey for Palm Sunday, an upper room for the Last Supper, and a tomb for His burial, they downplayed it by saying that Jesus did that because He was not from Jerusalem, but from Gallilee. I guess Jesus and His step-father, Joseph, must have had a rip roaring carpentry business in that hick village of Nazareth.
The issue with the prosperity "gospel" is that it makes God the means for the ends, riches. This was something that Paul clearly stated was an improper use of the gospel (1 & 2 Timothy). The other thing that distresses me about the prosperity gospel, is that is preached to the lower economic strata, particularly in Africa, by preachers that come from North America, where the lifestyle of an average welfare recipient would be considered lavish by many Africans.
Lastly, this is not supererogation. It is a misuse of Jesus' teaching about money. Jesus stated that it would be easier for a literal camel to go through a literal needle's eye, than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus, never took a dim view of wealth, He after all needed money to pay for a Roman tax. However, he wanted his followers to know that their trust was not to be in wealth, but in God. This is why he said that where one's treasure is then his heart will be there also. What the prosperity teachers have done, in my opinion, is corrupt the gospel by making it a means, in stead of an ends.
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Terry
Terry, I really have to laugh. You have once again demonstrated your ability to, at best, broadbrush, or at worst, another revelation of utter ignorance of Christianity, and what it teaches. For the sake of clarity, Pentecostalism, is accepted as a part of historical Christian orthodoxy. Examples of orthodox Pentecostal denominations would be Calvary Chapel, The Assemblies of God, The Foursquare Church, The Church of God, and The Church of God in Christ.
I grew up 50 yards from a Pentecostal Church! What I heard and saw convinced me it was a wild, weird and wired cult.
Secondly, I've talked to people at the bookstore at work who are Pentecostals who come in looking for the Dakes Bible.
I've read about Dakes himself.
During Dake’s ministry in Zion, he was the center of a controversy. In 1937, he was convicted of violating the Mann Act by willfully transporting 16-year-old Emma Barelli across the Wisconsin state line “for the purpose of debauchery and other immoral practices.” The May 27, 1936, issue of the Chicago Daily Tribune reported that Dake registered at hotels in Waukegan, Bloomington, and East St. Louis with the girl under the name "Christian Anderson and wife". In order to avoid a jury trial and the possibility of being sentenced to a maximum of 10 years in prison and a fine of $10,000, Dake pled guilty. Subsequently, he served six months in the House of Corrections in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Though he maintained his innocence of intent, his ordination with the Assemblies of God was revoked and he later joined the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee). While it is not known why he later ended his relationship with the Church of God, it is known that he eventually became independent of any denomination and member.
The Dispensational View of Theology doesn't pass the sniff test either.
What exactly appeals to you about this religious group?
- All Dake Products with many historic Dake pictures
- Dake Publications: The Official Publishing Arm of Dake Ministries
- "Confused Theology": A critique of Dake's Study Bible
- A response to: "Confused Theology": A critique of Dake's Study Bible
- The Apologetic's Index critique of the Dake Annotated Reference Bible