The JW belief "death pays for sin"

by Chalam 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Chalam

  Hello JWNers,

  I was just reading doublelife's thread and what struck me was this JW doctrine "She said that since my dad died, he paid for his sins, and he'll probably be resurrected."

  So, why did Jesus to die for our sins if we are just going to pay for them with our own death's?!

  Romans 5:8 (New International Version)

  8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

  Romans 6:9-10 (New International Version)

  9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

  1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)

  18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

  Now JWs will likely focus one part of these verses, they have quoted part of it to me.

  Ezekiel 18:4 (New International Version)

  4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

  Ezekiel 18:20 (New International Version)

  20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

  However, we all die, both the righteous and the unrighteous so there must be something else. Even the same chapter reminds us because we know the wicked man who repents still dies physically.

  Ezekiel 18:21 (New International Version)

  21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

  Also, judgement comes after death, it is not death itself

  Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version)

  27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

  Now seemingly JWs think resurrection is for the righteous only "he'll probably be resurrected" but that is not what the bible says

  Acts 24:15 (New International Version)

  15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

  Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)

  2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

  John 5:28-29 (New International Version)

  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

  Of course, the whole issue is the same one of Jesus being THE Mediator.

  Hebrews 9:15 (New International Version)

  15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

  1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)

  5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

  I think the words of Paul here sum it up

  1 Corinthians 15:2-5 (New International Version)

  2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

  3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

  So what is the gospel by which we are saved? Paul tells us in the next two verses, nice and simple!

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  RosePetal

  Hi Stephen Thank you for the quotations and explanations. There are many at the church I attend that work with witnesses and also they are frequently called on by witnesses. They suggested I do a workshop at the church to help them reason with the witnesses on different points raised. So your imput on the board is much appreciated. Keep them coming.

  Blessings to you RosePetal
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  designs

  Rose,

  How willing are you to step back and examine the Protestant/Evangelical interpretations of good and evil, life and death and the goodness punishment equation of God. In other words, helping a Witness into another religious system with its own philosophical and historical problems cannot be construed as progress or enlightenment can it. Stephen's piece shows his lack of understanding JW theology, which is easy to do, but still flapping your lips on a quip is a poor baseline for editorializing.

  Shalom aleichem

  'Do a little good each day'
• 

  snowbird

  Thanks, Stephen.

  While a JW, that teaching always troubled me.

  I came to the conclusion that we can't "pay" for anything, as we don't have the wherewithal.

  It's amazing how a plain reading of Scripture can tie up a lot of loose ends.

  Blessings to you, also.

  Sylvia
• 

  mindmelda

  All good points. Again, the WTS teachings deny Christ. How can you call yourselves Christians if you keep denying Christ?

  It's one of the most disturbing things about JWs...they actually believe that they are honoring Christ by their beliefs, and yet, they totally deny his divinity and his saving grace.

  I'm not really a Christian, I'm a Universalist of sorts, because I believe all paths strive to the Divine, but Christ is one path, and a significant one for many people, including me. To deny his divinity and the truth of his teaching is to deny the divinity and spirit of any belief system, in my philosophy.

  If there is one thing that being an ex Witness taught me, it's to never deny any path to spirit. The Witnesses spend a lot of time and energy denying other faiths right to exist, their spirituality, and deny what good they accomplish.

  Christ was able to reach the hearts of his enemies, and encouraged love of all. That is not what Witnesses are all about. They're about fear and hate of anyone who believes differently.

  They are no different than any other high control religion, in other words.

  I've found spirit in the ritual of Catholic Mass, in Protestant gospel music, in Native American shamanism, in Buddhist meditation and martial arts, in Wiccan and Pagan blessing ritual, in Druidism and in the wonderful wisdom and counsel of a rabbi who is a friend of mine. It's everywhere and in us all.

  To deny any way to find it is to deny ourselves. Truly spiritual people know that. They don't deny others their path to the Divine.
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  designs

  Snow,

  Haven't you just replaced one concept with its philosophical problems with another set of beliefs with even bigger philosophical ie a God who won't let the dead be dead. Now you've accepted a concept where God as a 5'6" jewish man in heaven keeps the dead really undead in, depending on your particlualr Protestant version, in some sort of conscious to semi conscious state forever aware of their agony in relation to the perceived God Man concept.

  That's progress?

  Shalom aleichem

  'Do a little good each day'
• 

  garyneal

  Yeah, look for Drew Sagan's post on that thread. I recall them saying this at the last assembly where my wife was baptized. My wife, of course, buys this hook, line, and sinker. Drew put the quote back in context and clearly it indicated that we 'die' to our sins by accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior. This is what is meant by our dying acquitting us of our sins.

  Just another example of how they twist scripture to their own destruction.

  Designs:

  I have to take issue with some of your posts judging and criticizing others for their efforts to point out errors in the doctrines of the JW's. You say, "Do a little good each day." So is this to imply that people who are trying to show what the Bible is really saying aren't 'doing a little good each day?' It is up to the individual JW to determine his or her own path after they have been shown the light but it is still incumbent on all of us who love others to show them the lies from the WT.

  Do a little good and stop judging others who are merely trying to so the same.

  SHALOM
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  garyneal

  designs: What is your concept? Do a little good each day and quit judging others for trying to do the same.
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  snowbird

  Snow,

  Haven't you just replaced one concept with its philosophical problems with another set of beliefs with even bigger philosophical ie a God who won't let the dead be dead.

  No problem at all if you're humble enough to accept the Bible's explanation that Jesus of Nazareth died for the sins of the world.

  Now you've accepted a concept where God as a 5'6" jewish man in heaven keeps the dead really undead in, depending on your particlualr Protestant version, in some sort of conscious to semi conscious state forever aware of their agony in relation to the perceived God Man concept.

  That is not my belief at all. I believe the dead are really dead, awaiting to be awakened by the Master's voice.

  That's progress?

  Compared to my former belief while a Baptist that "sinners" go to a burning hell at death, and while a JW, that only 144,000 go to heaven, yes, sir, that is indeed progress!

  Shalom aleichem

  Peace to you, also.

  'Do a little good each day'

  I try - both in words and deeds.

  Sylvia
• 

  designs

  Gary,

  Pointing out the agenda of the Protestants and Evangelicals is not necessarily judging but critiquing something that is by provable historical facts far worse than the shenannigans of the Society.

  Now you say Witnesses are twisting scripture to their destruction... 'destruction' really as in a mean old god hurting them? The 5'6" God Man who keeps on hurting humans. Not real bright Gary.....spooky religious beliefs, some people just can't get off of that old stuff. But helping out in our communites has real tangible results, a well fed child does better in school, a clean environment is better for us all. Real tangible good, each day, little by little making things better.

  Shalom aleichem