When being Fiscally Conservative means Raising Taxes

by Elsewhere 31 Replies latest social current

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    reminded me of a thought in this post:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/politics/189672/1/Bernanke-delivers-blunt-warning-on-U-S-debt

    From Robdar:

    freydo, I sent your link to my fiance, an economics professor. He told me I could share his response, so here it is:

    Interesting article. I agree with Bernanke to some extent. High interest rates are in nobody's interest right now. Nevertheless worrying about deficit over the next year or two is not the way to get out of a recession, either. Bernanke has already monetized much of this deficit by pumping trillions of dollars into the money supply through loans that he feels it unnecessary to disclose to either the U.S. public or even the public's elected representatives. I like Bernanke (and think he has the coolest beard in Washington) but he is engaged in a misdirect right now. The article does not clearly distinguish between short- and long-run, although it is implicit in the subtext. Essentially what Bernanke wants and I agree with him, is a plan to implement a process to bring future tax revenues and government expenditures more into line. I agree, that is the appropriate policy when the economy is expected to escape recession's gravity and be able to maintain loft and propel itself on its own, with more or less balanced government budgets -- very Keynesian (by the way, thanks so much for the Hayek Keynes rap, very enojoyable). So in the short-run, Bernanke is signalling continued Fed support for deficits. But in the long-run, he is essentially saying, you're on your own boys, you might want to think of some "revenue enhancers" (i.e., tax increases) or budget cuts . Now let's look at where the budget could be cut. Well the standard estimate is that defense spending is 20% to 30% of the budget. When you add in Department of Energy nuclear research, veterans' health cost (abysmally underfunded), veterans pensions, etc. you're talking about 50% of the budget. There's a lot to cut there, but seriously, nobody believes that's going to happen. That leaves 50% of the budget to play with and much of that is entitlement spending (medicaid, social security, medicaire, etc.) Medicaid and medicare are the ticking budget time bombs. Demographically either medical costs are going to have to grow as a share of GDP (even assuming that per unit cost of delivery does not rise) OR our children's generation is going to say screw you, we aren't going to pay (in which case the quality of care will decline even further). No politicial wants to touch these facts, however. Old people cost more to take care of! Social security is a false crisis. Costs are estimated to rise from around 4% of GDP to 6% of GDP which is a shitload of money, to be sure, but is less than the variance of the interest on the national debt during the 1980s. These costs also make overly pessimistic assumptions about future economic growth. There are many ways to close the gap produced by negative expectations (removing the $100,000 something ceiling on income subject to the payroll tax with correspondingly actuarially fair adjustments to those people's benefits is one of my favorites -- closes the gap to 97% not the 70% republicans are so fond of citing). In the end it all boils down to a division of output between current workers and current retirees. This is quintessentially a political decision. I could talk hours about social security, though. On the revenue side, I really don't see a problem with increasing taxes once the economy has escaped the recession. Many people assume that the pie does not grow or that fiscal responsibility might make the pie grow larger. It can! I would rather have my taxes go up 10% if that meant my income went up 15% over the same period -- I'm still better off. Fiscal responsibility, does not however, mean balancing the budget on the backs of the working class, working poor, or simply destitute. This country can afford higher taxes. We will all have more income if balanced budgets produce lower interest rates than would be expected with large deficits. We are, next to Japan , the most undertaxed industrial country on the planet. Bernanke is right to try to push Congress toward balancing the budget -- in the near future (or at least significantly reducing projected deficits). But Americans need to get over their phobia about taxes and he has said nothing about that. What he also has said nothing about is how he plans to suck out the huge injection of money he has made into the economy. In the short-run it was necessary but in the long-run it is inflationary. Now the problem is not higher nominal interest rates because 4%6% inflation would not produce higher real interest rates. [2% rates at 0% inflation = 8% rates at 6% inflation] but there is a problem with inflation. Inflation distorts price signals and tends to discourage risk while introducing uncertainty. In the long-run Bernanke will have to suck the money he pumped in out of the economy and he has given no indication of how he is going to do this. So yeah, we're being warned that we are being led to the sea. There are solutions to the problem but nobody has the cajones to implement them. My advice: Buy a life jacket or better yet a small boat. Republicans, including Rep. Spencer Bachus of Alabama, the top Republican on the banking committee, have argued that the government is now effectively guaranteeing Fannie and Freddie's nearly $5 trillion of mortgage-backed securities and other debt, so their revenues and liabilities should be included in the federal budget as obligations of the government. Taking this step would greatly bloat the federal balance sheet. This is a strange combination, revenues and libabilities, the first is from the income statement and the second from the balance sheet. That is certainly an inappropriate mixture. We should compare revenues with expenses and liabilities with assets. But then I suppose that wouldn't have made the point quite as well.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    This is why under President George W. Bush, with his tax cuts for the weathly, the United States national debt increased more than all other previous presidents combined.

    You need to straighten out your facts, because your logic doesn't follow. A static analysis of the Bush cuts on the upper income levels reveal that it accounts for only 5% of the deficit. And I emphasize static. A dynamic analysis would likely reveal a net gain in revenues. Why? People reinvest their money more freely when they get to keep a larger share of the gains. This stimulates the economy.

    The deficit is up because spending went up.

    Simple.

    Glass half empty, zero-sum gamers. I love you guys. In your zero-sum world, you can only give to one if you take from another. Reality doesn't work that way.

    Here, I'll even be nice about it and post a link, and to paraphrase SixONine, "it's simple"--mathematics that is. It also simply devastates your argument linking the Bush cuts as the reason for the deficit:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/obamas_deficit_the_devil_made.html

    The fact that things "were not paid for" would seem to be a pretty good reason for a deficit. But the part about "tax breaks for the wealthy" is pure nonsense.

    The "tax breaks for the wealthy" were tax rate cuts that totaled 4.6 percent. For the sake of illustration, let's round that up to 5 percent and apply it to an annual federal revenue total of $3T (which is more than the federal government has ever taken in). That works out to $150B, a long ways from the 2009 deficit.

    The "tax breaks for the wealthy" weren't for all federal revenue, just revenue from the Individual Income Tax. The largest portion of total federal revenue taken up by the personal income tax in recent years was 50 percent in FY 2000 (at the height of the dot-com bubble). So, if applied against revenue from personal income taxes only, the Bush rate cuts would have meant $75B in lost revenue. But wait, Obama promised that only the top 5 percent of personal income taxpayers would see a rate hike. The most that the top 5 percent has paid recently is about 60 percent of the personal income tax. So the Bush tax rate cuts would mean at most a $45B loss of revenue, or ... less than 3 percent of the 2009 deficit.

    The point of the above exercise is to show, with just a few well-known figures, that the president is mistaken. And I've used inflated figures throughout the example. Using more precise figures would yield an even smaller loss of revenue due to tax rate cuts. Clearly, the Obama administration doesn't think we are very smart.

    The problem with this exercise is that it uses "static scoring;" it doesn't take into account the effect of the tax rate cuts on economic behavior, and therefore tax revenue. Indeed, the economy did pick up under the Bush tax rate cuts, and America enjoyed her 5 highest years of total revenues ever, one of which was more than 25 percent higher than the previous record set in FY 2000. If my analysis were to use " dynamic scoring ," there might not have been any loss of revenue due to the evil Bush tax rate cuts.

    Now for the charts and a pointer stick:

    Look at federal revenues as a percentage of GDP alongside the top marginal rates. Not much correlation is there?

    It pretty much averages out at 19.5%, regardless of change in rates. This is known as Haldane's Rule.

    After emerging from the recession of the early 00's, what happened to Federal Tax Revenues, despite the fact that the Evil Boosch cut top rates?

    It will be you and me... the poor and middle class.

    The bottom half on the income ladder pays NO Federal Income taxes, bud, and that isn't likely to change. You may challenge me on this, but I've posted the figures many times, and will be happy to do so again.

    Also, the majority of the Bush cuts favored the middle class by a ratio of 7/3, if I recall correctly.

    Again, get your facts straightened out, and then you can make a cogent argument. The problem is, when you do straighten out your facts, you will have no argument. You'll just have to fall back on class warfare rhetoric and appeals to emotion, which is all your side of the debate actually has.

    Summary: We are not in deficit because our tax rates are too low. We are in deficit because we spend like drunken sailors on shore leave.

    You want to reduce the deficit?

    Cut spending and grow the economy, and you aren't going to increase revenues over an appreciable length of time with tax increases. You won't grow the economy that way either. Grow the economy. The increased wealth will create the increased revenue streams that will accrue to Uncle Sam.

    Lowering taxes for the wealthy only benefits the wealthy. No one else.

    What a ridiculous assertion. It is amazing to me that people just don't get this. The refutation is clearly laid out above.

    BTS

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    That is how the country got fuc&ked up. Ear marks.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist armed with charts and graphs to figure out what really happened. We started a war without creating a way to pay for it. Prior to that we had a huge surplus rather than the huge debt that takes up much of the discussion here. To make matters worse, the idiot who started the war for ideological reasons alone decided to cut taxes for himself and all wealthy friends at the same time, thus exacerbating the speed at which the surplus would evaporate.

    That's why we're hocked up to our eyeballs and Social Security is in trouble. It's why we can't afford universal healthcare. It's why you can't sell your house.

    The situation we find ourselves in now is not economic. It's political.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Basic Economics

    We are in a recession; therefore, we need to increase GDP/aggregate demand.

    GDP=Income=Output= y= C(consumption) + I(nvestment) + G(overnment) + (x(ports) - m(ports)) or y=C + I + G + (x-m)

    Ways to Increase AD Expenditure Changing Policy: 1) Monetary Policy, 2) Fiscal Policy Monetary Policy 1) The Federal Reserve can buy/sell bonds to increase/decrease the money supply, thereby affecting interest rates. e.g.= The Fed. buys bonds from foreign investors>the money supply increases>interest rates drop. A drop in interest rates impacts the equation as follows: ^GDP= ^C+^I+G+(x-^m) Loans are cheaper>people buy more cars/homes> C and I increase> GDP increases. The Fed. has already done this...interest rates are near zero...no more wiggle room. Fiscal Policy 1) When the government increases/decreases spending to impact demand by raising/lowering 1) taxes (T), 2) government spending (G) , or 3) transfers (TR) (SS, unemployement, etc.), and as a last resort...printing more money. Raising government spending leads to a better that dollar-for-dollar increase impact because of the "multiplier effect." Lowering taxes works best if the taxes lowered are for the middle/lower class. e.g.= Lower Bill Gates taxes and he will spend some, but save most of it. Lower an unemployed autoworkers taxes, and he will put every dime back into the economy for food/clothing/shelter. TR, such as unemployment have the same big bang effect. Raising taxes at this time would lower GDP. ^G or lowering T or increasing TR all lead to an ^C, which means ^GDP. As we can see, both Monetary and Fiscal policy options have been exhausted, but for printing more money...(I think we are doing this.:)) The government's strategies to increase C and I by lowering interest rates have worked in all past recessions because we had the housing market to lead the way out=lower interest rates, homes start selling, construction increases, more jobs/wages, more consumption (C). THIS time, we have a sluggish housing market because of the bank/lending fiasco, so it is not leading us out. We still have a long road ahead...but I don't think increasing taxes is the way out just yet.
  • JWoods
    JWoods
    We still have a long road ahead...but I don't think increasing taxes is the way out just yet.

    It probably is not really possible to increase taxes enough to change the deficit without going down into politically unavailable low upper & middle class wage earners or even lower.

  • B-Rock
    B-Rock

    Lower Bill Gates taxes and he will spend some, but save most of it.

    Where does the money go? Where does all of it go? Does Bill Gates stuff it in a mattress? Where does the money go, and what does it do when it gets there?

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Six.....There is class warfare. My side is winning" Warren Buffet.

    That sums up all you need to know about why we're in the pickle we're in, and all you need to know about how to fix it.

    It really is that simple.

    sammieswife.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I'm sorry Burns, but I don't think we're looking at the same charts.

    Everything in those charts above tell me that lowering taxes did not create more tax revenue.

  • tlawrence101
    tlawrence101

    You know if you believe that flies came from old meat, then I would say go back and finish your cooking. Taxes were meant to support war efforts and now they are allocated to other things. The answer is not to ask for new taxes but to be glad with the rghts that are done with the ones that we now have. Who really knows everything about the workings of internal affairs? Key issues are raised in your discussion and Jehovah's Kingdom is on standby to address such issues. The world is passing away and so is it's desires. Just keep that in mind.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    Jehovah's Kingdom is on standby to address such issues

    Giddy-Up!

    Just around the corner since 1879!

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