THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT

by AMNESIAN 59 Replies latest jw friends

teejay

No it isn't, and no you aren't.
Well, Six, you got the second part right.
Prisca

Xena said:
quote:
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Also some women who still carry over the ladylike civility a la WTS. You'll know them by their posts. They bought into that definition of 'the good woman' but forgot to return that old used up costume to the store lol. Real assertive competant outspoken women scare them,because they havent realized the status quo changed long ago. Pollyana is dead and buried. Civil=little ladylike kow-towing here (Tina)
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sssoooo it's wrong to be a lady now? Women have to be in your face using harsh hostile vulger language to be "liberated"? Guess we have different definations of what consititutes a real woman.

Xena, It has never been wrong to be a lady, and it never will.
To me, a lady means to be classy, feminine, yet does not allow people to take advantage of her. She knows who she is, yet does not walk over people to achieve her aims in life.
Most of all, a lady is someone who people respect. Men and women alike.
WildHorses

Ginny,
I am sitting here typing and retyping this. I can't find the words I want to use.
You are a true voice of reason. I could learn a lot from you.
Lilacs
I don't want someone in my life I can live with. I want someone in my life I can't live without.
larc

Amnesian,
I have some thoughts and some questions. First of all, I am assuming from your writing that your comments regarding elder culpability applies exclusively to those who know they are in a bad system, remain there, and thereby continue to do harm. If I interprete your major premise to be correct, then I would assume this applies to all JWs at all levels, from the regular publisher up to the Governing Body. A question is: when does someone come to this realization? In my case, it took nearly ten years, from the time I had my first nagging doubts until I was completely dissassociated. As I understand it, your husband was an elder for many years, so my question to you is: did you and your husband wake up one day with a sudden paradigm shift, or did your change in thinking take some time? Also, did your husband go through a transition period, where he saw that things were wrong on a local level, but that he could be instuemental in changing the system for the better?
I think that the uncoscious defense mechanisms, e.g., ratioalization can be so strong, that the majority of JWs at all levels will never come to the full realization that the system can't be saved, and that they are doing more harm than good by remaining a JW.
When someone is a true believer, the process of cognitive dissonance will almost always come down on the side of a justification of the organization, even in the presence of very strong evidence to the contrary. Anyone who has tryed to get someone to see that they should leave the religion is well aware of this very strong resistence, a resistence that often can not be over come.
I have one other subject I wanted to address. That is, your long analysis of Amazings thread that he started regarding women's issues. You impute a very negative motive to his thread, that I just done see. I didn't get the impression that the women who responded to that thread saw it the way you did either. Furthermore, I don't see their expression of thanks in the same light as you do. I saw the subject and the subsequent discussion as a benign and constructive dialogue, that could have been introduced by any male or female on this board.
I would be most interested in reading your thoughts on what I have presented.
teejay
Hello, waiting.
As far as I can tell, you said that Julie's post included:
1. rabid use of black/white wording
2. (oozing) for/against wording
3. insults against Amazing
4. for/against thought
5. trying to pit women against men
6. targeting Amazing for most of the woes of jw women everywhere.
7. for/against mentality, which permeates Julie's entire post
8. has little to do with the subject matter
I tried, waiting, but I saw little evidence supporting your conclusions. See if you see what I see.
Rabid use of black/white wording.
None. Conclusion: No black/white wording.
For/against thought, wording, mentality
I didn't see what you meant by this. She did speak of those who took offense with him and were sick of his attitude, but other than that... Conclusion: Didn't encourage a rallying to the 'side' against Amazing.
Insults against Amazing.
She DOES sarcastically speaks of people sitting at his feet "thankful for his every word of wisdom." She spoke of his "political bullshit talk." She speaks of his "obvious arrogance and chauvinistic attitude." She's not the only one (female or male) to say the same thing. Conclusion: No more insulting than you when you mentioned that one has to wonder about someone who'd pick the screen name "Amazing."
Men against women.
She relates her perception of what happened when she once challenged Amazing and wondered how many other women had differences of opinion with him but didn't say anything. She asks if Xena noticed how many of the posts unfavorable to Amazing were women who applauded AMNESIAN. She asks if those feelings were felt only when and because AMNESIAN said what she did. She asks if there might be many other women who were happy that a female could speak for them against the elder-like Amazing. She draws the conclusion that the feelings that came out in the posts from females in support of AMNESIAN had been felt for a long time. Conclusion: Beyond stating what was obvious and wondering about what wasn't, not a single attempt to rally the womenfolk to storm the gates that I could see.
Targeting Amazing for most of the woes of jw women everywhere
Conclusion: Not once, but you were only joking to begin with.
Has little to do with the subject matter.
Has little to do with AMNESIAN's thesis. Conclusion: Has little to do with AMNESIAN's thesis, but neither did Ginny's. Oh... you weren't talking about Ginny's post. Sorry.
Do you see what I see? Wonder why Julie left.
Peace,
tj
Xena

ROFL Wow Julie someone got their panties in a wad didn't they? Regardless of your rant I still believe tyydyy didn't post excessively...was I wrong there? And I believe he had every right to express his opinion that her post was excessive...geez it was pages and pages...what just because Amazing was longwinded she has to be too????
I think both of you are taking this wwwaaayyy to seriously....but that is just my opinion..and last time I looked this was a free country and ALL WOMEN and MEN were allowed to speak..even if they say something YOU don't like.
I by the was was very offended by these comments (like you care, right?):
If you want to look for hidden meanings and/or little things to take issue with or perhaps help you to understand some of the dynamics of the interactions on the board Xena, maybe you should start looking in the right places (cause take my word for it there are plenty, you just miss all the significant ones, *hint* they aren't put downs to your boyfriend or remarks about people's weight--not the meaningful ones at least).
I guess it all depends on what you call significant Julie..personally I think a hurting someone on a personal level is significant. But I guess you don't have a lot of respect for people on an individual level..and that is your RIGHT. I can respect that...to bad you can't do the same for me. *Hint Hint*
Oh and I thought it helpful in directing Xena how to look for serious underlying things instead of the petty shit she digs up from time to time and seems to feel rather victorious over.
Oh Julie dear thank you so much for directing me on the path of righteousness and wisdom...I am such a shitdigger...I am digging petty stuff up all over this board...and I do a little victory dance here at home around my computer every time I "score" a petty victory over someone...hhhmmm now when did I last do that...I can't seem to remember..but I am sure you can do some research and remind all of my petty deeds. But I assure you that now I have been exposed for the rabid mad woman that I am..I will cease and desist.
Of course not being a strong independent woman like you I will now go off and cry on the shoulder of the first available male I can find.
AlanF

I found the following dialog on this thread rather, shall we say, interesting, in relation to some relatively recent movies:
Amnesian: Afterall, even his departure did not come before he managed to leave behind no fewer than seven, that’s 7, separate posts in response, reaction, rebuttal, swipe, whatever, to my, in his oft-repeated words, "12 loooong pages" single post.
Tyydyy: WOW! How much time did that post take you? Sorry I have to admit I didn't take the time to read the whole thing... Also, That much effort put into just proving your side of an arguement seems a little excessive
Julie: Yeah, it is almost as bad as seven longish posts making promises, allegations and chock full of inflammatory statements as well as healthy doses of self-pity. Perhaps there is an epidemic of excessiveness going around.
Xena: funny I don't remember tyydyy posting anything like that...course he does spend a lot of time on the computer...but I thought he was just looking at porn...go figure..
Julie: ROFL...So do you go *looking* for some little thing to take issue with and or twist into an *issue*??? Or were your *pretending* like you didn't get the insinuation? Did you not get the insinuation?? I do not think Amnesian's posts/amount of words to be anything near Amazing's excessivness in evading the actual debate. Better now? Nice and streamlined for you?? Sheesh!!!
Xena: ROFL Wow Julie someone got their panties in a wad didn't they? Regardless of your rant I still believe tyydyy didn't post excessively...was I wrong there? And I believe he had every right to express his opinion that her post was excessive...geez it was pages and pages...what just because Amazing was longwinded she has to be too????
Julie: If you want to look for hidden meanings and/or little things to take issue with or perhaps help you to understand some of the dynamics of the interactions on the board Xena, maybe you should start looking in the right places (cause take my word for it there are plenty, you just miss all the significant ones, *hint* they aren't put downs to your boyfriend or remarks about people's weight--not the meaningful ones at least).
Xena: I by the was was very offended by these comments (like you care, right?): ... I guess it all depends on what you call significant Julie..personally I think a hurting someone on a personal level is significant. But I guess you don't have a lot of respect for people on an individual level..and that is your RIGHT. I can respect that...to bad you can't do the same for me. *Hint Hint*
Somehow the movie Clueless pops out of the pile.
AlanF
waiting

Hello tj,
ok, for the evening, for the duration of this comedy of errors - I give up. I really don't care that much, and I had previously expressed my opinon on the matter - on whatever thread was current at the time. I just thought it a shame for a very decent - absolutely not perfect - poster to leave.
I think this place benefits by most posters. As I wished to Tina that she come back, I wished to Amazing that he come back. We all benefit in the long run. MadApostate and Joel also. Farkel and Essie. More to come, I'm sure.
This is a long winded crock......and I've fallen into it also - by my own posting to it. I bow out - like Julie has. LOL! I have studies too! I just won't leave taking swipes at people, as Julie did. I answered her non-present post back - and tj, if you think I'm going to take the next 5 pages and go back and forth with you over something I don't think is important, you've misjudged me.
The only time I do that is if I have an emotional/mental stake in a subject, or there is an underdog. This is just prolonged bullshit, imho. No offense meant - but the joke threads are a lot more interesting. Hell, laundry is more interesting at this point. Sorry to be so blunt, but all the rape/molestation/incest threads/fights have taken their toll on me.
Adios from this one. People are getting hurt, and no one seems to give a rat's ass, tj.
waiting
WildHorses

LOL@Alan. You do have a sense of humor after all
I don't want someone in my life I can live with. I want someone in my life I can't live without.
Xena

lol you are right Alan...it is a pointless meanless arguement...one of many we have been having on here recently
Julie my comment regarding tyydyys comment was a joke...I was attempting to inject a little humor in a tense situation..it's what I do..I am sorry you didn't see it and I am sorry I didn't initially explain it as such after your first post back to me...you made me angry with some comments you made and I lashed back...hhhhhmmm this must be how flame wars start, huh?
Xena of the Guess I am only Human After All Class

THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT

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