Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree 37 Replies latest jw friends

borgfree

Abaddon,
I was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.
You say: Quote: "Yeah, all those WASP's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the Blacks, Irish, Polish, Scandanavian, other non-Anglo Protestants, Roman Catholics and the Latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the WASP's...
... oh, no, sorry, it was the WASP's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the Roman Catholics, Blacks, Irish, Polish, Scandanvians, other non-Anglo Protestants, and the Latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs...
The WASP's built America? Like, YEAH. Learn your countries history!!!"
I think it is you who need some real history lessons. If you have read American history then I think you must be reading the new "politically correct" "revisionist history'
Of course there were rich white men in this country. What do you suppose this country would be like today if all of those white men who came to this country slipped across the borders without a dime to their names and at once started living off of the "taxpayers"
I grew up in the 1940s and 1950s, I saw with my own eyes many of the things that are now being twisted and distorted to add to the claim that white men rode the backs of all of those wonderful "minorities"
Maybe you are of the crowd that believes all business and businessmen are evil. Those white men who owned businesses ran their businesses well, that is how many of them got rich. They also provided jobs, that is how many "minorities" went from poverty to riches or middle class incomes.
Those same white men wrote the constitution, bill of rights, "equal opportunity laws" HA! and all of the other laws that now elevate "minorities" over the descendants of the builders of this country. Instead of these WASPs being praised for everything they have done to further the advancement of "minorities" (by the way, these so called minorities are only minority in this country. By far they are not minority in the world) so instead of being appreciated for their efforts those same WASPs are being demonized.
Even NOW, at age 63, I will do the work (physical) of two or three of the minorities in our workforce. I am in management but many times I must do, as most managers will, the work, when we are short on help etc. I have been in the workforce all of my life and my doing the work of two or three minoroties is not an exception, it is the rule.
My father worked all of his life at manual labor, so did my mother. My mother worked mostly as a waitress to provide for her family after my father left the home. She worked 10 - 12 hours every day, NO handouts from taxpayers or any place else.
I saw all of my family work very hard all of their lives to gain whatever they wanted in life. NO government mandates to give them what others worked for. Some of my family worked hard to build businesses, I guess then they became part of that evil WASP group getting ahead on the backs of "minorities?
It is not my desire to argue race, but I know what I personally saw during my life and I am seeing history being lied about so that "minorities" can feel "superior" in some way. I will not be a part of it and I will not accept the blame for some imagined, or otherwise, wrongs done to "minorities".
As I said in a previous post, I am VERY proud to be a WASP, I will not hang my head in shame to please the politically correct liars of today. I might add, my ancestry includes American Indian, and a variety of other nationalities, however I do not consider myself a /American. I am American, period.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
Abaddon

One initial question (I'll answer properly tomorrow when I make sure we are 'on the same page', as I am going off line now).
WASP means White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
In other words, it refers to people descended from English Protestants.
Properly WASP used doesn't refer to anyone else.
So, are you still saying that America was built by people descended from English Protestants?
Just wanna be sure we're using the same word for the same thing, as there is nothing sillier than disagreeing when one actually agrees, is there?
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
borgfree

Abaddon,
I believe America was founded by the English, French, and some others from Europe.
If it is my background that is in question, my grandmother (on my mothers side) was full blooded English her husband, my grandfather was mostly English with a little Irish, Scot Irish. My fathers side was a large mixture.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
IslandWoman

Borgfree,
It was my post to Clash that first offended you:
"Clash,
The Bible has for centuries been used by fundamentalists to lend Godly support for the persecution of the Jews, the continued enslavement of Blacks in the Southern USA, and the putting down of women.
It of course comes as no surprise that here in America all of these efforts also serve to keep the male WASPs in control!
Which is really the point isn't it!!"
---------------------------------------------------------------
This was written within the context of: fundamentalists who use the Bible to further their own personal agendas and who have aligned themselves with the prevailing powers of America. It was not meant as an insult but if you felt it was then I sincerely apologize! I do not hate WASPs, I married one!
I do feel though that the credit for the building of America cannot be SOLELY laid at the feet of the first white Americans.
The U.S. Constitution, while certainly a brilliant work one which has benefited countless of people, was not invented in a vacuum. The great formers of the Constitution had their sensibilities and intellects trained by those who came before them, men such as John Locke who in 1690 in his Treatises On Government set forth many of the principles found in the Constitution such as: natural rights, property rights, the duty of government to protect these rights and the rule of the majority.
George Washington was a slave owner, as was Thomas Jefferson. It was their black slaves that put food in their mouth, it was the black slaves that literally put a roof over their heads. The State of Virginia was the "mother" state to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and James Monroe, four of the first five Presidents of our country. "Mother's" economy was heavily slave dependent, take away the slaves and what you have is a group of land rich men who are dirt poor!
Ironically, Colonial America found it necessary to throw off the yoke of their mother country, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants! No one race or nationality is above another, IMO though they all have had to fight the same enemy; oppressive religion. In fact several of the Founding Fathers would not fit the Fundamentalist definition of Christian, for they did not all have faith in the inerrancy of the Bible or respect for the organized religion of their day.
If the Anglo-Saxon feels his race should be given credit for the role it played in the forming of this country, this is fine because it is true. But it is also true that he did not and could not have done it alone and that many suffered greatly along the way including Blacks and the American Indians.
The Blacks were forced to work the land taken from the American Indian. It was this work and this land that helped to make America rich. The Anglo-Saxon also worked and he also designed a fine system of government.
Infant "America" was the child of ALL these peoples.
IW
borgfree

Islandwoman,
I do not find a lot of disagreement with you. I really do not care that much about which man or what race was responsible for the history of this country. I am greatly offended however when I start hearing the PC garbage about "dead white Europeans" who only took advantage of some poor innocent people and got rich doing it.
There is NO innocent culture in human history. All nations and peoples have waged war on other people and have taken land, property, slaves, etc. from the defeated peoples.
The PC mantra for several decades now has been to demonize ALL white men, especially if they are also Christian and if they are "straight" that adds to the permissability of attacking them. That group, the white, Christian, straight, man is probably the only group that can be openly attacked without fear of reprisal.
While I feel that I am somewhat alone in my speaking up, I do not intend to let attacks and charges go unchallenged by whatever group or whatever purpose is promoted in those attacks.
I believe that most thinking people really know there are other sides to the claims of being "helddown", "downtrodden", "underpriviledged", etc. Some use such retoric simply to gain some kind of advantage without having to work for it.
Then there are the race "prostitutes" who build fortunes by advancing racial divisions and tensions. I wont name them, we all know who they are.
While you may cite people who promoted good ideas before the founding fathers of this country, I think that the earliest source of those ideas can be traced to the Christian bible. It is true that many atrocities were done by some claiming to be Christian. I think probably you would find atrocities also done by some in other religions.
While this country certainly has a very spotted past I still think it is the greatest country to ever exist and I do not see anything constructive in the constant attacks on either the country or the founders.
When I see some of the race prostitutes on TV attacking this country I would just like for some courageous TV reporter to ask them what country they think is doing a better job, and, if there is one, why do they not prefer to live there.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
LDH

Those white men who owned businesses ran their businesses well, that is how many of them got rich. They also provided jobs, that is how many "minorities" went from poverty to riches or middle class incomes.
heh heh, me thinks Borgfree should do some research into the likes of, say, Andrew Carnegie.
Borg, the reason this country has evolved into so much 'political correctness,' IMHO, is that the ruling class took advantage of ALL minorities, include Irish and Italians here. As Ruling Classes go, they did what they were supposed to do. Broke the back of the weak until the weak were numbered enough to fight back.
Why do we have so much legislation about Labor Laws?!?! Think about it. Because the worker needed to be protected. Think Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle."
Now of course we are paying the price with everyone and their brother using technicalities and loopholes in the law to 'get ahead.'
So as far as the concept of 'They ran their business well,' that is a fallacy. They ran their business by breaking the backs of uneducated workers of ALL races. It would be correct to say they put their business ahead of all else. And if that is your definition of running a business well, so be it.
My definition would not include the death of workers (mostly white) who built the Hoover Dam, Brooklyn Bridge, Railroads, etc). Shit, minorities couldn't even get most of these jobs.
But that is how this country got great. Now of course, legislation has almost cut off the blood flow for business owners. (There must be some middle ground, but that's another thread).
As far as
I grew up in the 1940s and 1950s, I saw with my own eyes many of the things that are now being twisted and distorted to add to the claim that white men rode the backs of all of those wonderful "minorities"
I'm not sure if it's the word 'wonderful' that is offensive, or the quote hashes around the word minorities?!?!?
Like I already said, during the 40's and 50's, for a white man the term 'working for the bank' had a whole different connotation that it did for a black man. HMMM....to say nothing of the fact that other minorities frequently had it harder.
It was your generation who interred the Japanese, (who according to the WBTS are industrious, LOL)
While this country certainly has a very spotted past I still think it is the greatest country to ever exist and I do not see anything constructive in the constant attacks on either the country or the founders.
When I see some of the race prostitutes on TV attacking this country I would just like for some courageous TV reporter to ask them what country they think is doing a better job, and, if there is one, why do they not prefer to live there.
While I totally agree, the fact that this may be the 'best' country in the world doesn't shield it from being criticized about its past or its future.
Bill Maher, whom I love dearly, can get away with criticizing the government of this country. Ask yourself how the general public would feel if Bill's words were coming out of, say, Louis Farrakhan's mouth?Farrakhan being an asshole is an aside for the sake of this argument.
There does exist plenty of double standards and not just race based, either. I doubt you will ever hear of any famous WASP women, LOL.
Lisa
Agrees with you more than you think but likes to play devil's advocate class
borgfree

LDH,
I am now at work but will do the best I can to reply.
What you call "took advantage of" would be, especially in that day, providing jobs. Every man or in some cases woman had the choice to accept or reject those jobs. Of course the rich men (Andrew Carnegie)used those employees to get richer, are you saying you wouldn't?
You must also remember that you are judging the people of that day by today's standards. Not a very fair judgement. I do not defend everything those men did but I am somewhat of a realist, they offered jobs, people desparetly needed jobs and so willingly worked for those rich men.
I can see merit in the labor laws but I also know that all of those laws were not made because the politicians were so kind hearted, rather many of them (politicians) buy votes by passing laws, good or bad.
I have a little trouble with your view that business men "broke the backs of uneducated workers" were those workers kidnapped and forced to work? Are you saying those poor workers, aka victims, had no choice?
You say, Quote: " Now of course we are paying the price with everyone and their brother using technicalities and loopholes in the law to 'get ahead.'"
No, I think we are paying the price for electing spineless, incompetent, socialist, bleeding heart liberals.
Quote: "My definition would not include the death of workers (mostly white) who built the Hoover Dam, Brooklyn Bridge, Railroads, etc). Shit, minorities couldn't even get most of these jobs."
Those are and were of course very dangerous jobs and there were very hearty men willing to risk life and limb to do those jobs, probably partly because those were the higher paying jobs. I personally was a window washer for a big part of my life in Chicago, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc., my buildings were 20 - 30 floors high. I chose to do that job, I risked my life every day but no one forced me to do it and I was not a victim of some cruel business owner.
My use of the words "wonderful and minorities" is because that is the way minorities are portrayed, they seem to always be a victim of some evil white man taking advantage of them. Even when a minority commits a crime it is not because that person is a criminal but rather because some evil white man victimized him causing him to strike out in the only way he knew how.
Sorry, you have my generation just a little bit off. I was only a small child when the Japanese were interred.
I see no problem with criticizing wrongs of this country but surely you recognize that it is all out of proportion. Other countries are overlooked in the criticism department when it comes to extreme wrongs while the USA is overly criticized for much less wrongs.
You say, Quote "Bill Maher, whom I love dearly, can get away with criticizing the government of this country. Ask yourself how the general public would feel if Bill's words were coming out of, say, Louis Farrakhan's mouth? Farrakhan being an asshole is an aside for the sake of this argument."
I cannot stand or stomach Bill Maher, I think he is a leftist propagandist. I have no use for Louis Farrakhan either, I am an equal opportunity disliker.
WASP women? how about Margaret Thatcher?
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
IslandWoman

Borgfree you said:
"There is NO innocent culture in human history. All nations and peoples have waged war on other people and have taken land, property, slaves, etc. from the defeated peoples."
"I still think it is the greatest country to ever exist"
I agree with both those statements.
Most countries have minorities and citizens that disagree with their policies, in the majority as well as the minority. And most countries have suffered the pains of a neglectful past. The United States is not unique in these respects.
The right and ability to publicly disagree is what has contributed to America's greatness. You have a right to loudly say what you think, and I do not believe you are by any means alone in your opinions! Others also by right of this great Government have a right to say what they think.
Your feelings have been shaped by your experiences, but others have had different experiences and these different experiences have shaped THEIR feelings.
To say that the U.S. has and still does wrong is not an attack, it is the right of political expression.
Every Presidential election since that of John Adams has produced opposing views and vehement political disagreements. The Founding Fathers themselves made terrible charges against one another.
The Government was not an entity in itself, it was men working out their differences, from the beginning there was compromise. The Constitution was not the result of genius alone, it was the result of genius and men willing to compromise. Men who were willing to lose a little and gain a little rather than ditch the whole Revolutionary effort. They found a way to balance the rights of the smaller states verses the rights of the larger states, an effort that still continues today among the minority views verses the majority views in various political and social issues.
The United States Government was and is a work in progress. It must change as the world around it changes. Compromise and disagreement is all we have, and in a Democracy we should treasure it.
Again, I do apologize to you for any offense in the use of the term WASP.
IW
borgfree

IslandWoman,
I do not find anything in your last post to disagree with.
No apology necessary, but thank you.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
IslandWoman

Borgfree,
Thank you for the kind reply. BTW, I love your screen name!
IW

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

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