WHEN is a simple question--but, the Bible just can't help us answer

by Terry 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    As I mentioned in a previous topic, the use of quantity, numbering, dates, measurements and such in the Bible is impossibly wonky for several reaasons.

    1. In Hebrew, Greek and Latin there were no separate number symbols exclusively used for math purposes. Instead, letters of their alphabet did double-duty. (Such as A=1, B=2, C=3, etc.)

    2. Superstitious ideas about the "meaning" of numbers was rampant and Gematria (looking for hidden mysterious in the inherent "number of "words") preoccupied scriptural writing and studies.

    3. Calendar changes throughout history (such as the switch from the Julian Calendar to the Gregorian) were haphazardly begun by different countries at different times. Co-ordinating things cannot be synchronized from one to the other easily.

    4.The original autograph manuscripts of Bible writers simply disappeared and do not exist at all for purposes of checking accuracy of modern translations with copies of copies of copies starting about 250 years after the actual writings!

    In view of the above, I thought it would interesting to look at a simple question and see if the Bible can "answer" it for us:

    How old was Jesus when he began his ministry and in what year did this take place?

    Luke verse 1: "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness." It was at this place, where John the Baptist baptized Jesus, and "the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (v.23), being commended by the Father with "a voice [that] came from heaven," He began His ministry.

    Tremendously detailed, isn't it? Must make it very easy to answer our question. But, look at the result:

    • In the fifteenth year of Tiberius, who began his reign in August, 14 A.D., Jesus, according to Matthew, was at least thirty-three years of age; according to Luke, about twenty-two.

      Regarding this subject, Dr. Geikie writes as follows: "The age of Jesus at his entrance on his public work has been variously estimated. Ewald supposes that he was about thirty-four, fixing his birth three years before the death of Herod.

    • Wieseler, on the contrary, believes him to have been in his thirty-first year, setting his birth a few months before Herod's death. Bunsen, Anger, Winer, Schurer, and Renan agree with this.

    • Lichtenstein makes him thirty-two.

    • Hausrath and Keim, on the other hand, think that he began his ministry in the year AD. 34, but they do not give any supposed date for his birth, though if that of Ewald be taken as a medium he must have been forty years old, while, if Wieseler's date be preferred, he would only have been thirty-seven ... Amidst such difference, exactness is impossible" (Life of Christ, Vol. I, pp. 455, 456).

    • From the death of Herod, a comet, and a census we can narrow down Jesus' birth to 5-6 B.C. According to Luke, Jesus was around 30 years old when he started his ministry. His ministry started around A.D. 26-27 (cross reference rulers mentioned with other records outside of the Bible). If you count the number of Passovers (a yearly feast) mentioned, his ministry lasted for at least 2 years, take into account another unknown feast, likely over 3 years. Because of the day of the week he was crucified on (and the day he rose from the dead) he either died in A.D. 30 or A.D. 33.
    • According to most Bible scholars Jesus was born in 4 BC (either the spring or the fall) by our modern calendar and began His ministry around 27 AD (age 30). .
    • Can we really depend on the "precision" of the inspired Bible to answer ANY question requiring detail, quanity, accuracy and chronology?
  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I really don't think that looking into the bible for "facts" of the emperical nature is a good idea, I doubtr the writers cared about being so "correct".

    Historical facts are "good enough" when it applies to historical people and Jesus was NOT a King or an emperor or even a person of importance to have anyone other than those who cared about him, right about him or even acknowledge his existence.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    The most complicated way to answer a simple question. The Bible has no zero year--no year when everything started. So it has to do things this way--opening the way to errors of all kinds.

  • dgp
    dgp

    PSacramento, I beg to disagree. Whether we are Christians or not, it's convenient for us to understand what people believe and why, and, also, to know why they are wrong or what good points they could be making.

    I find Terry's posts very interesting because they tend make one look at the Bible as a book, pure and simple, and see whether it makes sense or not. If you believe in something, at least make sure that it holds water. And if you happen not to believe in that something, learn why others believe so you know where you stand.

    I can't resist mentioning something that happened to me. When I was in college, a Catholic one, all students had to take a course on Catholic theology. The priest who was teaching us said he didn't believe in God because of what was written on the Bible. He said he believed in God because the Christ had come back from the dead, as attested by truth-sayers such as the Apostles. The written accounts of the fact were perhaps extremely important, but not supremely important. The important thing was the FACT, he said. Now, that was the moment when I started looking at the Bible the way Terry does.

    If you're a believer, you can hold that perhaps the Bible is full of nonsense (which is true, in my humble opinion) and yet the Christ was resurrected (which I don't believe). If you're not a believer, you still have to find your moral compass in a world where many people take the Bible as their moral reference. Honestly, I never ever ever understood why we have to believe that a woman is impure after her menses. That is a natural process, which, I must suppose, was conceived and put into flesh by the Creator. And the reason why I find it easy NOT to think that women are impure is that, many years before me, some unbelievers took it upon themselves to say that they didn't believe the Bible was the inerrant word of God. That is to say, they made the kind of analyses that Terry is making. So I like these posts.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Dgp,

    I don't think we are in disagreement, you see, I don't hold the bible to be more than it is, a collection of writings by people that were insipred by God to write about the events they had seen.

    Now, there are parts in the bible that I strongle disagree with and other that I strongly believe in, but I do NOT take the bible as a whole as being without error nor was it ever meant to be inerrant.

    I am sure some parts are without error, we do know that Nebachdrezzer (sp?) conqured the Israelits for example, but I don't think that God told the Israelits to go out and kill men, women and children, that it was "God's will and commandment" that they do this.

    Anything written by man has to be viewed as written by Man and as such, we need to be careful was is take as literal and what is taken as figurative or even what is written to "excuse".

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    If the Bible wasn't meant to be accurate or correct, then what's the point of 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good" - KJV?

    If it wasn't meant to be accurate or correct, why have a Bible at all?

  • Terry
    Terry

    In computer languge: GIGO. Garbage IN=garbage OUT.

    Now why should we call anything written in the Bible "Garbage".

    Garbage is useless and you throw it out.

    Consider this: if the Bible is not what it has been long presented to the world as being: THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD, then two questions arise:

    1.What is it-----really?

    2.What makes any of it worth a lifetime of scrutiny and why believe the extrapolations men have made from it in their detailed theology?

    Who wants to tackle the question of WHY ARE THERE NO ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPH UNCORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS in existence anywhere?

    Were they deliberately destroyed by the early Church (as they did so many troublesome documents which challenged their beliefs) by enemies

    of the Church---or, were they NOT VIEWED AS HOLY back then in the first place?

    The Catholic Church preserved everything they could get their hands on for purposes of veneration. Yet, the most important documents in human history are left to rot somewhere???

    It boggles my mind.

    But, it doesn't trouble anybody else as far as I can tell.....

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    If the Bible wasn't meant to be accurate or correct, then what's the point of 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good" - KJV?
    If it wasn't meant to be accurate or correct, why have a Bible at all?

    What was Paul speaking about when he said this?

    Final Instructions

    12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.

    16 Be joyful always; 17 pray continually; 18 give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

    19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.

    23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

    25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

    28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Terry,

    There are a few books out there on the authenticity of the NT works, have you read them?

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Interesting is it not that When is very much postulated into JW theology, bringing heighten importance and value to their literature.

    If you want to know exactly When, all it takes is read the WT. or Aw. magazines.

    The bible is full of embellished stories scribed by the ancient writers to bring relevance and importance to their writings,

    today we define writings such as this as fictional.

    The difference between non-fiction and fiction was blurred by the ancients unfortunately for today many religions in existence now

    were created on the fictionalized writings. ......no names mentioned

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