MEET THE MAN YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF........PAPIUS the investigative reporter

by Terry 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I've been interested in Papias for many years. His chiliasm is related to that in Revelation, that attributed to Polycarp of Smyrna and that expressed by Irenaeus, and probably related to later Montanism, and it appears that Cerinthus was a chiliast too, so it seems likely that chiliasm was an Asian (Phrygian) phenomenon; cf. the evidence of the religious influence of Zoroastrianism in Asia Minor (and cf. the possible influence of the Oracles of Hystaspes on Revelation). His grotesque oracle on the blessings of the vine in the messianic kingdom is closely related to the very similar statement in 2 Baruch 29:3-6, a late first century AD Jewish apocalypse. His similarly extravagent description of the death of Judas is closely related to that in Acts (which probably referred to Judas becoming "swollen" instead of "headlong"), and its details are informed through OT interpretation of Psalms 66 and 109 (the same psalms cited in the Acts story). Thus Papias is probably a witness to the same process of early Christian storytelling, drawing on OT material as a "witness" of Jesus' life, found in the canonical gospels.

    Papias was also disliked because he stood in the way of the tradition that John the son of Zebedee wrote the gospel of John. The John of Ephesus that he personally knew was not John the disciple of the Lord, as he distinguished John the "elder" from John the apostle. Moreover, he reported the tradition that the two sons of Zebedee died early in Jerusalem (the gospel of Mark appears to imply similarly that the two sons would be martyred in ch. 10, and Mark was likely written in the late 60s).

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    Terry,

    I think your a decent man going to prison for his beliefs. I certainly respect that.

    Jesus I don't think he needs an education. I do.

    Take care.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Not in the least !
    We may not always agree, but I love the way you challenge us believers :)

    That's kind of you, my friend. I especially appreciate your sharpening my face with your views. Keep up the good work.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Jesus I don't think he needs an education

    Me too.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Papias is sort of a latter day Bob Woodward.

    But, probably didn't look anything like Robert Redford.

    The information Woodward and Bernstein turned up brought down a President (Nixon.)

    Had Papias not been thwarted by his own Nixon (Eusebius) the phoney version of Christianity we have today might have been brought down.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    Hey Thanks,... more to read, you gotta stop.

    Terry, Leo: Which are the best books regarding the history of the bible and their writters that contain the most accurate and less biased information?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Terry, Leo: Which are the best books regarding the history of the bible and their writters that contain the most accurate and less biased information?

    Gee, I've had so many that came through the bookstore that I've read......

    I wouldn't buy any of them. Go to a big public library and go to the inventory computer and type in Early Church Fathers, Bible canon, etc.

    Get the book and sit down and thumb through it. Find an interesting chapter. See if it is readable.

    That is the problem with academic books by theologians and scholars--their so-called writing "style" can kill you.

    Casually go through them and see if you can learn anything in any paragraph. If you learn something immediately you are in luck.

    I like Reading Karen Armstrong because I learn something on every page of her books.

    Snoop around on the internet encyclopedias. You might find some really interesting writings, snippets and such.

    Go for it.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    cyberjesus....My best suggestion is to go to a major university library and read through the introductions of the critical commentaries devoted to each book of the Bible. I don't know of a single volume in current literature that really does all the books justice. The commentary series I would most recommend are the Hermeneia, Word, and the International Critical Commentary series. However, there are overview volumes of the OT and the NT that I highly recommend. These are the Introduction to the Literature of the Old Testament by G. R. Driver and the Introduction to the Literature of the New Testament by James Moffatt. These books are over a hundred years old but they should be required reading for ANYONE interested in this subject. Moffatt's volume in particular is a masterpiece. I turn to them first when questions of authorship and provenance and date come up because they are jam packed with evidence and reasoning. Of course, they are dated, but they are an excellent starting point nonetheless.

  • wobble
    wobble

    I have had this dream,from when I was a JW, that one day some early autograph manuscripts will turn up and end most of the controversies surrounding the "Bible".

    What would be even better would be a contemporaneous record of what Jesus ACTUALLY taught.

    I would bet it bears no relation to what we have today, and little to the gospels, even if we had autograph copies of them, I bet that by the time the gospels were written the urge to mythologise Jesus was so great that truth did not matter too much.

    I would love to know his actual words though, he had an effect on people that still resonates today, even though we have no way of knowing what he said.

    One day the stuff will turn up. That will make fools of SO many !

    Wobble

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    That will make fools of SO many !

    Indeed.

    BTS

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