so a persona can live apart from the body?
Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh
by theMadJW 277 Replies latest watchtower bible
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debator
Hellfire was born from people taking a parable from Jesus way to literally and also liking the third century dogma of an immortal soul but then realising they had to create a immortally nasty place as a complement for the ones that get the immortally nice place.
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teel
No debator, you're wrong again. Hell in general, and hellfire in particular was alive and well long before Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
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debator
Teel, I admit the concept of "hell" (eternal Torture) was in other non-christian religions under various names. So I should have been clearer that I was refering to the bible's and Christianities concept of "Hell" but wiki does admit.
"Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife,"
The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.
1. By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html
Next wiki doesn't really go into how Christianity developed this concept only citing established post-third century Christian religions that support a specific Hellfire dogma.
""And I looked, and behold a pale horse; and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed him." ReV vi 8. There is no necessary connection between death and a place of endless punishment, as all men die, good or bad; but there is a connection between death and the grave, or the state of the dead; and there is a propriety in representing the last as following the first. "And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." ReV xx. 13. This is the reverse of what is usually taught and believed of hell; for the leading idea is that it will not give up those who are in it. Surely the hell the Revelator speaks of is not a place of endless torments. This is further confirmed by the next verse, where it is said, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," that is, utterly destroyed. Of course, then, this hell cannot be a place of endless woe, since it is not itself endless."
I agree completely with the witnesses on this one. Or are you going to say "sheol"/grave is not a biblical teaching that got changed to Eternal hellfire in dogma?
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isaacaustin
Debator:
Hellfire was born from people taking a parable from Jesus way to literally and also liking the third century dogma of an immortal soul but then realising they had to create a immortally nasty place as a complement for the ones that get the immortally nice place.
My reply:
Parables don't use proper nouns. If this was intended to be a parable one must wonder why that it the only parable where Jesus used proper nouns. It also begs the question of why Jesus would use an untruth to make a point.
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designs
Why does the Trinity God hurt himself or want to experience suffering.
Why is the Trinity organically Masochistic.
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JWoods
This thread is STILL going?
I saw the other MadJW one yesterday about the Flying Spaghetti Monster already got locked...
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debator
Hi isaac
Can a parable said to be an untruth?
parable - WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) :
parable
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn:
fable, parable, allegory, apologue]
2: (New Testament) any of the stories told by Jesus to convey
his religious message; "the parable of the prodigal son"
A parable is a story to convey a point, it is not meant to be taken literally.Lets examine the story/parable we are refering too.
Luke 16:19-31 (New American Standard Bible)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 "And a poor man named Lazarus (A) was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to (B) Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In (C) Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom .
24 "And he cried out and said, ' (D) Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in (E) this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that (F) during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may (G) warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham said, 'They have (H) Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, (I) father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
I highlighted a few words in particular. Are you saying this is all literal and really happened?
Jesus used many poetical forms. parables being one, hyperboles as well, Are we really meant to pluck our eyes out rather than think of sinning? Or did he use them to emphasise the points he was making?
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Chalam
Welcome debator!
There is plenty of good info into this thread but could can I suggest you take a look here to start with?
Actually, I would rather share my thoughts on the entire parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Assuming you believe that it is a parable?
Personally, I do not see it as a parable. The possibility that this is a parable or literal is thus:-
- Luke 16 opens with a parable. However, the verses 16-18 proceeding this account are certainly literal. This leaves the possibility that the account is literal or a parable.
- Many times Jesus uses the words "is like" at the start of the parable. None appears here leaving the possibility open.
- There is no subsequent explanation of the parable as some other parables had, once again leaving the possibility of this being a parable or literal.
The evidence that Jesus is not speaking in parables here is :-
- Abraham, a literal person is in the account so it is fairly safe to assume the other characters are also literal, as are the events depicted.
- No parable contains any person named person i.e. a literal person but rather general unnamed characters.
- "Lazarus" is named and the most likely conclusion is he is a literal, non-fictional character, like Abraham. The "rich man" of course is not named but neither is any man who goes to Hell, even Judas Iscariot's final fate is not mentioned in the bible (a lesson there).
- "Moses and the prophets" are also named. Similarly, they are literal people.
- When Jesus explains a parable, He tells us who the literal people and things that are depicted, Matthew 13:36-43 for example.
Luke 16:22 - The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. (in hell) Take note that the beggar is carried to Abraham's side, not God's.
My understanding is that Abraham is with Moses, Enoch, Elijah and the rest of those who lived by faith Hebrews 11, Luke 23:42-43 at the right hand of the Father Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 12:1
Blessings,
Stephen
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designs
What were the Paradoxes on Presence, Essence and Foreknowledge that Aquinas, Molina, and Calvin made even worse.
Why did it portray their idea of God as Masochistic.
We'll get to why Non-Jews interpret Jewish literary devices as literal in a moment................. its good real good.