What---if anything---can we learn from AYN RAND'S philosophy?
by Terry 93 Replies latest jw friends
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THE GLADIATOR
Do our bodies distinguish between what it real and what the mind tells it that is real?
No. They are a poor judge of reality. Perceiving something to be warm or cold is a subjective opinion.
Only a thermometer will tell us the truth, it is objective. Humans are not, including me. That is why I seek verification before I act on an opinion of my own or someone else.
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Terry
Just to be clear....
SUBJECTIVE means you alone experience it. Your toothache. Your sense of humor, your fear, your interpretation of something.
OBJECTIVE means available to everyone. That table. This bullet.
Confusion arises when we start interpreting for ourselves. Example: I call in to work and tell them I have a migraine headache. They don't FEEL that headache. They take my word for it that it hurts too bad for me to work.
What if your boss doesn't like you? They can "interpret" your headache as skipping work to go to a baseball game.
See the difference?
Reality is Real. A=A.
What Reality "means" is subjective. A "appears to mean" B is subjective.
Hint: a destroyer of communication always wants to destroy the capacity to perceive. They muddy the clear water and declare there is nothing to see but mud swirling around.
Example: "nobody can understand such and so" "there is no such thing as reality" thus questioning objective fact and making it appear to be a mere hallucination of opinion.
When starting a discussion about an idea or concept it makes perfect sense to clearly define what that concept IS and how it differs from every other one.
When I started this topic I gave a list of Concepts with very clear definitions.
I had hoped to take clear definitions as a starting point for specific discussion.
It isn't enough to say you disagree with something. A lame idea or a wrong one is defeated by better idea and a clear and factual one.
If Hitler says "Jews are vermin and must be exterminated" you can't defeat that with "He has a silly mustache nobody will listen to him."
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snowbird
Oh, Terry, lighten up and let the juices flow!
I'm learning so much from this discussion.
If Ayn Rand were here, I think even she would be enthralled.
Sylvia
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PSacramento
No. They are a poor judge of reality. Perceiving something to be warm or cold is a subjective opinion.
Perception can kill, very real, no?
We are discussing, debating if you wan, PHILOSOPHY, not reality people.
We are discussing a person's view of reality, their chosen perception of reality.
We are not discussing reality, or did you guys forget that?
Reality is BOTH subjective and objective.
When starting a discussion about an idea or concept it makes perfect sense to clearly define what that concept IS and how it differs from every other one.
When I started this topic I gave a list of Concepts with very clear definitions.
We can define our view and opinion of a philosophical concept, but that is all that it is.
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BurnTheShips
If Ayn Rand were here, I think even she would be enthralled.
Probably not! She was an arrogant woman. But that doesn't mean that I don't like any of her ideas--just not all of them.
Who is John Galt?
BTS
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mindmelda
Subjective or phenomenological reality IS a valid kind of reality. *headdesk* Quit talking about it as if it's invalid! It is for scientific purposes, but not for ordinary purposes.
That pain I just felt in my head, although subjective, was quite real. You didn't feel it, or experience it, but it's real to ME. You might conjecture that it's a fact that hitting my head would hurt because a. you've experienced the same, or b. I have observable signs associated typically with pain but still...subjective reality.
Quit mixing up "reality" with FACTS! Facts are observable to most people and conform to our scienfic understanding of the world around us, currently, but reality can be and often is subjective.
They're defined differently, honestly and truly, they ARE!
The best conclusion is that reality is rather useless SCIENTIFICALLY if it's subjective, not that reality is always factual. Truth, well, even more nebulous. That's why I find it hilarious that the Witnesses use the term "truth" to describe what they believe as if that makes it written in stone or factual. To quote Inigo Montoya..."You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
In fact, Inigo understands subjective reality quite well....he also says to the Giant, "He's right on top of us. I wonder if he is using the same wind we are using?"
LOLOur senses and emotions are an EXCELLENT judge of reality...subjectively speaking. Objectively...not so much. Just as an experiment, try telling someone who says they love you that their emotions are invalid because they're "subjective" or that when your baby is hungry and begins to cry to knock it off because they're just reacting on their subjective sensations.
In those situations...NOT VERY USEFUL.
We're not computers, we don't run on pure objective logic, it's just a valuable option for some purposes, like figuring out and observing facts about the world around us, but that doesn't invalidate subjective "reality" at all on a personal level.
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Terry
In religion and in meditation the guru or enlightened one misdirects you inward---as though what you imagine is more "real" than the actual world around you. This is metaphysics and is the opposite of physics.
In essence, subjectivism is the doctrine that feelings are the creator of facts, and therefore men’s primary tool of cognition. If men feel it, declares the
subjectivist, that makes it so.
The alternative to subjectivism is the advocacy of objectivity—an attitude which rests on the view that reality exists independent of human
consciousness; that the role of the subject is not to create the object, but to perceive it; and that knowledge of reality can be acquired only by
directing one’s attention outward to the facts.
OPRAH got all caught up in the bullshit about THE SECRET whereby you "imagine" what you want and it miraculously appears.
This is Subjectivity.
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THE GLADIATOR
PSacromento: Perception can kill, very real, no?
No, perception in itself does not kill. The risk is that we may mistake our subjective perception for reality, which is objective.
When we try to make a move in the real world outside of our mind we run head on into reality and lose. If the clash is not fatal, then we can learn from the experience and adjust our delusional view of the world so it falls in line with reality.
If we persist in living out of sink with reality we will live a life of delusion, which may be an enjoyable escape from reality. This is why drugs are popular. A wasted life is common.
Death is often the result of not respecting reality but trying to pit our personal subjective reality against true reality.
Believing that we can fly or that our god will save us no matter what we do, is one thing. Jumping of a cliff to test our belief, is a wake up call - or not!