Do We Give WTS Too Much Credit? Are They Maybe Just Dummies?

by OnTheWayOut 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  OnTheWayOut

  I know many just want to shout YES to that second question, but hold on a second.
  I go back and forth wondering if there is evil intent to manipulate and lie to the "flock" through the pages of Watchtower and from the platform at conventions or if they really believe most of their own nonsense.

  I won't load my post with endless examples (but feel free to use them) of this. I will post just two to make my thoughts. Sometimes, I read comments about their long-term planning to get more money or lose less money and gain more members or retain more of the captives. The latest one is the cry to forego marriage. We discuss how that reduces the number of born-in JW's to harvest and wonder what they are up to. But perhaps, they just want to put the urgency back into the organization and tie that in with their overlap generation theory.

  The second example: getting rid of the bookstudy in private homes. Could it be that they don't have enough elders and they didn't want to pay for the gas to get Bethelites from rural upstate New York to these midweek short meetings? Could it just be that they wanted to stop covering the same books over and over again, but didn' have the money to print millions and millions of new books? A new book at the convention is covered in 6 months or so at hour-long bookstudies, so they still needed to cover older books constantly.

  Maybe they are not thinking long-term. Maybe they are not diabolical in their thinking. Maybe they are just operating in crisis-mode to try to retain members and control them and save money. Could it be just that basic?

  I don't have a preconceived solid notion on this. Sometimes, I am sure they pick up their "Cult Management for Dummies" book and other times I am sure they are just dummies without a guide.
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  leavingwt

  I share Ray Franz's opinion: From top to bottom, they are 'captive to the concept' that WT is God's Organization. This belief dominates their thinking and actions.

  I was once just like them. This is what motivated me.
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  lepermessiah

  I really think its like any large, bureaucratic organization at this point.

  One thing that scares me about religious organizations is that they usually attract people who would be considered quite intelligent for leadership. However, like many other bureaucracies, they make stupid decisions based on having book-smart people in roles that require lots of common sense. Throw in LeavingWT's important point about being captive to the concept of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" and you have real mess on your hands!
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  flipper

  OTWO- You and I have discussed this at length on the phone. Your statement that " wondering if there is evil intent to manipulate and lie to the "flock " through the pages of the Watchtower " somewhat puzzles me. For those of us who have suffered injustices at the hands of arrogant elders who don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground I think it's pretty clear that evil intent is demonstrated on a very common level throughout the organization. It may be that because you haven't experienced a lot of shunning or aggressive tactics personally by former elders you knew or JW relatives - you are not aware personally how this has happened to many people on this board. Not being unkind here- just playing the Devil's advocate from a different view. We are close friends and will remain so.

  I would not say I " give the WT society credit " for the tactics they use - in fact I would say it's barbaric , unethical, and insidious how they try to alienate family members from one another and influence JW members minds through cult mind control to have UNCONDITIONAL ALLEIGANCE to the WT organization no matter what - right or wrong - as opposed to standing up on behalf of family members who may be getting screwed over by the JW cult . I have seen these injustices time and time again in the 44 years I was in the JW cult.

  I mean, where do we begin ? Malawi ? Mexico ? Who is held liable for preventing JW's from getting needed blood transfusions to save their lives? God ? No- It was the leaders of the WT society who did that. What about DFing people who reported child abuse to police authorities ? What about the WT society DFing Barbara Anderson for disclosing that the WT organization had hidden child abuse for years ? And what do you think caused the WT society to come out with an article in the Awake in Oct. of 2007 Condemning Child abuse - only 1 month before the nationwide announcement on NBC news in November of that year announcing 16 victims of child abuse had been paid off in a multi-million $$$ settlement earlier that year ? It's called " damage control". Of course no one in the JW organization knew this was going on behind the scenes. No one in the JW organization EVER knows what elders, the C.O's , D.O.s or WT leaders are doing behind the scenes . That is how the WT leaders want it. "Information control " like Steve Hassan states.

  Also- For instance one thing I found interesting after exiting the cult was that even though elders are aware of the fact that they can bring witnesses on their behalf to put a JW member on trial in a JC meeting - but no Jehovah's Witness is ever told what THEIR rights are as to bringing a witness to speak on THEIR behalf to defend them at a JC meeting. does the WT society print that right of the publisher to do so in the WT magazine ? No. In the Kingdom Ministry ? No. Anywhere that publishers have access to ? No. And why ? It's done on purpose to NOT iNFORM JW members of their rights. The playing field is not fair or just. The information is found in the Elders Manual for ONLY elders to be aware of. Subversive ? Yes. Devious ? You betcha. And done on purpose for the ultimate control of JC meetings by elders - so publishers won't be made aware of all their rights. Once again " information control".

  I've know far too many people personally who have been hurt intentionally by this organization. Yes- The leaders have urgency to keep their scam and game going to be sure. That's why the overlapping generation theory and other constantly changing doctrine position changes- it's to make sure they keep ultimate control of their 7 million members . O.K. End of my rant, now I'll try to exhale. I need a drink. LOL ! Love you lots OTWO - of course you know that ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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  sd-7

  Quite frankly, there really are only two possible options with much of what we see in the organization: either they are dumb/ignorant or they are intentionally doing things a certain way. I'm just not inclined to think they're dumb. I'm inclined to think they know exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it. Certainly, CoC provided the evidence to support that, but just the teachings themselves stink of purposeful manipulation. I could see that as a kid--when they'd change a time calculation doctrine, it became clear that they were just scaling back as time proved their enemy. I probably couldn't consciously voice it, but I knew it.

  Given my own experience in my JC, and thereafter--hearing the same elder who said "I could care less about 1914!" pontificate about this being 'God's organization'--clearly he knows there is B.S. involved and has no problem with it. Either that or there is a serious, serious disconnect in the minds of everyone about the implications of what things are taught and the policies.

  Dumb is to predict the end of the world on X date. Evil is to do so, deny that you ever did, and silence anyone who finds out for the sake of controlling millions of people.

  I'm goin' with evil on this one.
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  JWoods

  Evil it certainly is - but, just like the Nazi holocaust - it only takes a few truly evil people at the top and a vast array of brainwashed rank & file.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Hey, no offense is taken from anyone. Fire away with thoughts. I just want to stir this up and get thoughts because I have been on the fence for a long time on this.

  Flipper, it is my belief that the majority of arrogant elders and JW relatives that shun are fully "captives of the concepts" that WTS is God's earthly organization. The evil (IMO) would come from higher than them. Even lying for them can be viewed as their ridiculous "theocratic warfare."

  I am aware that ordering the shunning of former members does serve a selfish purpose of keeping information from the members, but they admit that much. They say it's to keep lies of Satan's system from the members. I welcome comments on both sides of issues like that, whether that is how they really arrived at such conclusions or not, but to me again- the members are just following orders when they participate in shunning. Sure, there are assholes in every family that go too far sometimes, but overall I still feel it's ignorant blind obedience. But does WTS get blind obedience through deliberate dangerous cult mind control or by applying techniques that work regardless of their source?

  I am aware that the GB doesn't trust the members to make decisions for themselves or study without WT literature. There is much distrust and subterfuse in their ways. They may think it's for the best and they just may not care as long as the money is coming in.

  Malawi, Mexico- I get it. It's just plain wrong. But the GB may really believe they were doing what was best in the long run to get land and members in Mexico and justified the sacrifice of people in Malawi as another way to gain members through martyrdom. Read a book like MISTAKES WERE MADE (BUT NOT BY ME) and learn how police can find themselves planting evidence and lying and interogating for 10 hours to get false confessions. Most probably believe they are getting the guilty off the street. WTS members could be just as bad- victims of mind-control seeing the need to mind-control the members for an end result.

  Barbara Anderson and DF'ing various people- they simply get rid of anyone that exposes their subterfuse. The pedophile issue is not as simple, but they are trying to make the organization less "tarnished" in the public eye like the Catholic Church became.

  They could very well feel that the organization is more important than the individual. That in itself is an "evil" but it just might be caused by their blind ignorance again while they are captives of their concepts.

  Bullying the members at a JC could have come about because they convince the middle and lower managers that they also cannot trust the members in these situations. The GB wants total control and they pass that attitude down. I don't think it's a way they insure they can kick anybody out, but rather it's a way they can control anybody to do as they say (supposedly for their own good) OR ELSE kick them out (for the supposed good of everyone else).

  Yes, there is evil in all their ways, but even a serial murderer can just not be aware that his thinking is just all wrong- people are not supposed to go around doing that. My staying on the fence could be likened to that- are they aware that they are evil or just screwed up in the head?
  I have to imagine there is some of each, but still need others' thoughts on this.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Evil it certainly is - but, just like the Nazi holocaust - it only takes a few truly evil people at the top and a vast array of brainwashed rank & file.

  I am probably closely aligned with that. Knorr and Fred Franz were duped, in my opinion. But they followed the evil intent of Rutherford. As far as the Governing Body is concerned, it has to just be a key person or a handful that know better than to let the things happen as they do, but they love it.
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  OnTheWayOut

  I suppose what gets me is that I was totally duped. While I didn't try to run over a member in a JC, I stood back and let others do it because if it wasn't right, Jehovah would stop it. While I didn't deliberately tell people to forego personal needs to put the organization first, I sat back and let it happen in my own congregations. While I never told a wife to stay with an abusive husband (quite the opposite- I told them I would stand by them if they decided to leave), I thought Mother knew best with her advice on these situations so I was silent when the woman went to other elders for advice instead of me.

  In short, I had no evil intent and I was a part of it. I guess I am stuck on this because I want to believe that higher ups do the same.
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  JWoods

  I think that whoever thought up the blood transfusion doctrine was consciously evil - you would HAVE TO BE to do something to cause people's preventable deaths in the name of what was an ancient dietary novelty.

  Stuff like the new "generation" idea are really just an effort to cover their sorry false-prophetic butts - maybe not so evil, but certainly cynically dishonest.