Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading

by AllTimeJeff 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  EndofMysteries

  notverylikely - I haven't decided yet what I believe from book of Enoch, but I am taking it into heavy consideration. I been reading many non cannon books too.

  - Where did sin come from...... - first I'll say, if your really seeking answers, may want to put your faith in God to show you and look in the bible. If you believe in the bible, then as the scriptures say it's impossible for any to get an accurate understanding unless God opens their mind to it. Hiding the sacred secret. If you don't believe, and need some help to even consider that and looking more...... your question about Jesus and where sin came from ........ the standard bible most americans have, (since as you point out different canon versions), does in a concealed way, have some alternative answers. WITHOUT an alternative answer, garden of Eden being symbolic would not invalidate the teaching of sin and ransom sacrifice. (if the tree of knowledge mean a creature, or book, something which imparts knowledge and answers), many scriptures in the bible if you search occurences of law, sin, knowledge, conscious, state that 'after' knowing something is wrong, or if you 'think' it could be, anything in doubt or knowledge is a sin.

  - If you like reading other books too, there is an old book called, "adam and eve" I believe. Again Eden being symbolic 'if' the sin explanation given is true, would still hold.

  - When I first started, it was very scary, nobody to turn to for the answers, but also if you look about the prophecys of the last days, they ALL say how God's people have been lead astray by the shepards. How HE will instruct his sheep, how HE will shepard them. Jesus says he will send the SPIRIT of TRUTH which will TEACH YOU all things. I could not find any scriptures showing there would be a place to go. Also realized perhaps it's a test of faith, putting faith in man for answers vs true faith in God.
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  notverylikely

  first I'll say, if your really seeking answers, may want to put your faith in God to show you and look in the bible.

  Typical non-answer.

  garden of Eden being symbolic would not invalidate the teaching of sin and ransom sacrifice.

  Absolutely it would. The bible clearly says THAT is the reason.

  If you believe in the bible, then as the scriptures say it's impossible for any to get an accurate understanding unless God opens their mind to it. Hiding the sacred secret. If you don't believe, and need some help to even consider that and looking more

  So much going wrong there.....So you have to beleive to get the knowledge to understand, first you just have to blindly beleive to the the secret?
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  EndofMysteries

  I presume, because I know the order in which I learned things to get to the understanding I'm at, at the moment. If you were a JW, its like trying to explain annointed and the 1,000 year reign and earthly resurrection if the householder believes in just heaven or hell when you die. I just know we don't have the same understanding at the moment.

  Also......when you get answers and understanding without someone showing you, and unable to find online or anywhere, it does give you faith. If I 'could' or 'did' answer every question you had, and you believed it, you'd have faith or trust in me, and that would be bad. Build your house on the true rock.
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  notverylikely

  When I first started, it was very scary, nobody to turn to for the answers, but also if you look about the prophecys of the last days, they ALL say how God's people have been lead astray by the shepards.

  Prophecy needs to be something specific to have meaning, not vague maybe's...
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  notverylikely

  I just know we don't have the same understanding at the moment.

  I can tell. You have much to learn, but I am patient. You will catch up.

  If I 'could' or 'did' answer every question you had, and you believed it, you'd have faith or trust in me, and that would be bad.

  Let's just start with one answer, then, shall we?

  Also......when you get answers and understanding without someone showing you, and unable to find online or anywhere, it does give you faith.

  I can teach you better google skills. And faith in what? you were the one that did all the work.
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  EndofMysteries

  No, not typical non-answer. Everyone who thinks they know it, is all to eager to be a 'teacher' To have glory and people going to them. Even if motives are pure at first, easy snare, puffed up, and such occurs. Don't most all teach to go to 'them' for the answers. If you think I may have some, I'm telling you, I did not go to anyone for it, and I'm telling you how I got them. I think as soon as possible and from the start, one's goal should be to not need any human for guidance involving the bible and God.

  I guess you didn't read my response on Garden of Eden - lets take it very basic. (Eating fruit from tree of knowledge of good and bad which then opened their eyes to what is good and bad is sin so then children inherited sin) OR (being told the knowledge by something or reading the knowledge from something which is 'symbolized' as tree of knowledge was a sin so then children inherited) On the literal understanding, even symbolically would not for sure invalidate it. There are 'other' symbolic possibilities which could.

  About 'blindly believe'...............- here is what I did. In James is the scripture about Godly wisdom, if you need it, pray for it, but have NO doubts that you will receive it. Then also what Jesus said about asking father for spiritual food, he won't give a serpent or scorpion. Also the scriptures about draw close to God and he will draw close to you. - So my reasoning was.........we have in the bible those promises. Now Jesus when he prayed, said Our father in the heavens. I did a real sincere prayer, and made it very clear, it was intended for the creator of everything. (just incase deception even in our bible). I asked how am I supposed to know the truth if there is one, and what to do, etc. I was putting faith, that he see's my heart, and would guide me. That I'm taking a big leap of faith, and trusting in him. AND that based on what I been taught, I shouldn't even question any part of the bible, but I will even be open to things in there hard to accept, if there is any corruption, and also if I even think anything in the process that is not right, he will understand I'm looking for the truth and guide me to the truth of the matter. - I have no doubt I am getting some help. So many things being answered and finding many valid explanations. I'm still much in a learning phase, and hesitant to say much or give current thoughts, because I don't even want to lead someone in a direction of thinking which may be incorrect. Just assist right now in how they can learn and not be enslaved again by a religion or teaching of man.
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  EndofMysteries

  "faith in what? you were the one that did all the work." - point proven! Hopefully you think and look for some answers which 'you' have to do the work, and which you won't find online, so your faith could be built where it should.
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  notverylikely

  No, not typical non-answer. Everyone who thinks they know it, is all to eager to be a 'teacher'

  That's exactly a typical non-answer. However you think it isn't, it is. I have heard that exact same answer from everyone who claims to have "discovered" something or have special knowledge or get messages from God...When it's like all the others, that, by definition, is typical.

  I guess you didn't read my response on Garden of Eden

  Of course I did. And responded to it.

  (Eating fruit from tree of knowledge of good and bad which then opened their eyes to what is good and bad is sin so then children inherited sin) OR (being told the knowledge by something or reading the knowledge from something which is 'symbolized' as tree of knowledge was a sin so then children inherited)

  It's not an OR in the bible, it's a very literal thing, even to the apostles. You are picking and choosing and deciding what is symbolic when you really don't have any basis for deciding so. How is an invisible savior in the sky any less beleivable than a talking snake? There is simply no way you can make that judgement call.

  On the literal understanding, even symbolically would not for sure invalidate it. There are 'other' symbolic possibilities which could.

  If it's symbolic, then Paul and Jesus were wrong. Jesus was atoning for Adam, sin didn't enter through Adam, there was no Satan tempting the world. It 100% invalidates it.

  I did a real sincere prayer, and made it very clear, it was intended for the creator of everything. (just incase deception even in our bible)

  People often pray very sincerly. How would you know who was answering you?

  I'm still much in a learning phase, and hesitant to say much or give current thoughts, because I don't even want to lead someone in a direction of thinking which may be incorrect.Just assist right now in how they can learn and not be enslaved again by a religion or teaching of man.

  So why are you posting here? You want "study partners", but you have to know that if you find one that what you are learning and thinking will affect them.What you are wrong and they pick up one of your wrong ideas? If you are wrong and assist someone, your wrong ideas could endanger them.
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  notverylikely

  "faith in what? you were the one that did all the work." - point proven! Hopefully you think and look for some answers which 'you' have to do the work, and which you won't find online, so your faith could be built where it should.

  My faith is already right where it should be. God never did anything for man. God didn't provide penicillin, or teach man how to cultivate animals or crops, to make fire, to make cloth, shoes, to travel into space, to make food for the starving.... etc.
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  JeffT

  I'm reaching back to something I read when I was leaving in 1988. I will try to remember the actual reference.

  There is a danger to regarding the Bible as one book, it is more like a collection of books, or perhaps a really thick magazine. The works that make up the Bible were written by many people (some were just writing down oral stories) over a period of a thousand years or more. There are historical parts, prophetic parts, poetic parts, collections of sayings, letters etc. These can not be treated equally, they were written to different audiences and with different purposes.

  A good theologian will recognize these differences and take them into account. A better theologian will tell you to read it and let your own conscience be your guide.

  The dichotomy between "literal" and "interpretive" is a false dilemma, it does not all have to be one or the other.

  Personally, I think some parts of the Bible are there to make us think about the questions, not to provide the answers.