Would Jesus have told us the devine name was lost?

by wannabe 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Tec! Hello! Long-time-no-see!

    I agree, Jesus' teaching was all about his relationship to his Father not getting his name "right".

    The religion guys of the gospel were disturbed that he clearly claimed this relationship.

    Jesus invited all who want to do his Father's will to share that Father/child relationship.

    But still, is the meaning of the Name actually important? Because if it is, then wasn't that meaning manifested by the intimate involvement that the Father had with Jesus?

    The way it seems to me is this: If the ultimate meaning of the Name is a big deal, then some form of it may be useful for initial introductions to us poor little orphans. But once we claim the relationship through Jesus, then we are his adopted children. He is just Abba, Father.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    I did not read that long long post that began this topic but I was in the midst of talking about the name of God as portrayed in the New Testament. I was shown by my wife scripture in Matthew where Jesus was being tempted by Satan and Jesus quoted old testament scripture in response.

    Apparently, my KJV copy of the Bible has the word LORD in all caps in the text. However, I understand that God's name was not recorded anywhere in the new testament. Apparently, the people at my wife's hall are trying to argue that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and the the tetragrammaton was written in it. I have not verified this so far I still don't see how the Society could be justified in inserting God's name 237 in the New Testament greek.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Nobody can be sure what language "Matthew " penned his Gospel in, I doubt it was Hebrew. the gospel is a tract to spread the Christian religion throughout the Roman Empire, not many who were born in to the Jewish faith would be fluent readers of Hebrew, let alone the non-Jews.

    "God" in the bible does not have a personal name, there are many names given to him by the writers to show what he was capable of i.e Yaweh of Armies, and a number of titles, grand instructor as the NWT has it for example.

    The tetragrammaton is not a personal name in the sense that mine may be Jonathan or David, it is a way of explaining God's power to be whatever is needed for his people Israel.

    The use of the name "Jehovah" was useful to Chazzer Russell in his fight against the trinity, and to Rutherford whose marketing ploy was to be different, as you would expect Gods Organization to be.

    It is still just a brand name, for marketing purposes, that probably needs an update, to help in selling the religion in the 21st Century.

  • moshe
    moshe
    What these Blinded Individuals fail to realise is, Jehovah will never forget his own name

    wannabe, if you stick around here for a few more years, you will realize that being blinded starts with believing everything you read in the Bible. If God wanted to preserve a holy name, he could have done it. He could have made sure the words he wanted preserved were carved into stone on the top of many mountains in 50 foot tall letters, like Mount Rushmore. Imagine if explorers had discovered god's name carved in huge letters in stone exactly the same in Africa, Australia, Europe, Asia , N and S America. That would have been a bold witness to the veracity of his name. His name would have been visible to all the world. But none of that happened. Which begs the question, why not? if God didn't care enough to faithfully preserve a holy name, then why should humans care what it is, or if there is a holy name? 'My god is better than your false god', rivalries have been going on since the invention of writing.

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    ... and why would the Watchtower borrow a name that was created by a "false religion" Catholic monk of the 13th Century in the first place? Pronouncing the Divine Name as "Yahweh" would be more accurate.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    The language of the Jews at the time of Christ was Aramaic. IF there were pre-greek version, it would have been written in Aramaic.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel never used any personal name to distinguish Him from any peers because He had no peers. Therefore, no personal name was ever needed. The only name He gave for Himself was "I am," which indicated that He is to be identified with all existence. The Greek Septuagint Old Testament of 285BC never used any sacred name for God, nor was such ever mentioned by other ancient writers such as the Israelite historians, Philo, and Josephus, or the later Eusebius, or even the Jewish Aristeas the Exegete who wrote his commentary on the Greek Septuagint. The word did not appear in any Old Testament text until the Masoretic Text of 1000AD!"

    Not so. The tetragrammaton most definitely appears in Hebrew OT MSS at Qumran from the second century BC to the first century AD, as well as in MSS elsewhere. It appears frequently in Greek OT MSS from the second century BC to the first century AD. It appeared in many other religious compositions from the period. It was certainly a most ancient name used by the Israelites, appearing often in inscriptions, ostraca, papyri, and stele (such as the Mesha Stele from the ninth century BC). It appears in the seventh-century BC Ketef Hinnom text of the Priestly Benediction (from Numbers 6:24-26), the oldest copy of any OT text. The literary evidence points clearly to its later suppletion by surrogates like 'Elohim and 'Adonai, rather than a late incursion as you construe things. Although not represented as such, the tetragrammaton was referenced by Philo of Alexandria (De Vita Mosis 2.115, 132) and Josephus (Antiquitates 3.270, Bellum 5.325). It was mentioned by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Epiphanius, and other church fathers. It was mentioned in vocalized form by Diodorus Siculus (first century BC) and other Greek writers. The MT was produced very late (c. AD 950) but that is most definitely not the first apperance of the name in the text of the OT.

    Apparently, the people at my wife's hall are trying to argue that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and the the tetragrammaton was written in it.
    Nobody can be sure what language "Matthew " penned his Gospel in, I doubt it was Hebrew.

    Actually there is very strong evidence that Matthew was originally written in Greek, and this is the general opinion of scholars. Matthew is really an expanded edition of the gospel of Mark, which certainly was written in Greek (among other things, formal quotations from the OT are from the LXX), embodying about 90% of the text of Mark, usually with verbatim agreement; original non-Markan material appears largely in blocks interspersed in the Markan text. The only evidence for Matthew having a Semitic original lies in late second century AD tradition; however the basis for this was the statement by Papias in the early second century AD that Matthew composed the "oracles" (ta logia) in the Hebrew language. Many have noted that this is different from the claim that the gospel itself was written in a Semitic tongue, and this accords well with the theory that the oral sayings material inserted into the Markan frame was likely first written down in Aramaic (in the NT and in common parlance, "Hebrew" was used to refer to Aramaic), in what some scholars have called "Q", which was a source utilized by the Greek author of Matthew. Even without presuming the existence of a "Q" document as a common source for Matthew and Luke (i.e. on the theory that Luke used Matthew), there would have been a source for the original sayings material incorporated into the First Gospel. To complicate things further, there were later secondary gospels translated from Greek that circulated in the second and third centuries AD in the Hebrew or Aramaic languages, which are largely redacted versions of Matthew. These Jewish-Christian gospels circulated under such names as the Gospel of the Ebionites, the Gospel of the Nazoreans, the Gospel of the Hebrews, etc., each claiming to be the "Hebrew original" of Matthew.

    The people in your wife's hall are probably half-remembering Watchtower articles about the gospel of Matthew that reference George Howard's work on the medieval Hebrew version of Matthew copied by Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben Shaprut. Shem-Tob's version is interesting for including a surrogate (the letter he with two short strokes) for the tetragrammaton within the text of Matthew (note that this is NOT the tetragrammaton per se but a symbol for it). It thus anticipates the many later Hebrew translations of the NT that (innovatively) insert the tetragrammaton or a symbol for it into the text (many of the "J" references cited in the 1984 Reference edition of the NWT). Howard however claimed that the Shem-Tob text is primitive, or at least preserves many primitive features. The Society takes this as proof, or at least strongly substantiating evidence, that Matthew was written originally in Hebrew and had the tetragrammaton in the text. Howard is more circumspect in his suggestions, finding an early date (i.e. within the first four centuries AD, possibly representing the text of the first century AD) feasible, with the gospel originating in an unidentified Jewish-Christian group. Howard's suggestions however have been met with much criticism (see Petersen, JBL 1989 and Shedinger, CBQ 1999). Others have pointed out that Shem-Tob shows dependence on gospel harmonies and is thus hardly representative of an early text of Matthew, as well as evidence that a translation from Greek underlies the text. For instance, Matthew 1:23 in Shem-Tob preserves the explanation of the meaning of the Hebrew name Immanuel (betraying a Greek origin of the text, as such an explanation is needed in the Greek but wholly unnecessary in Hebrew). Another telling example is Matthew 6:28 in Shem-Tob, which refers to how the lillies "grow, they neither spin nor weave". The Greek vorlage for "they grow" is auxanousin which occurs in the Majority Text of the verse; however this is probably a copyist error for ou xenousin "they do not card" which appears in the original text in the Codex Sinaiticus and which is probably original to the gospel since v. 26 has a similar three-part saying (neither sow, nor reap, nor gather into barns || neither card, nor spin, nor toil). The reference to weaving OTOH is found only in the Western Text of Luke 12:27 (e.g. D) and in the Old Syriac and the Old Latin; this is thus another likely secondary development. So Shem-Tob here not only embodies a harmonistic reading (which itself is probably secondary) but also probably a copyist error only possible in the Greek. It is possible that Shem-Tob is a descendent of one of the Jewish-Christian gospels translated from Greek, but Shem-Tob does not closely match the descriptions of them given in the church fathers.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Would you not agree that if anyone knew God's name correctly, it was Jesus? Would you not also agree that he knew the correct pronuniciation of his fathers Name? Since he chose the Twelve Apostles after a long night of prayer to his Father, would he not have taught the Twelve his Fathers name? Knowing that name as they would have, would they not have published that name far and wide? Would not any who associated with them come to know that name, and they too would carry it forth in their ministry? So reasonably, would not that name be known even hundreds of years after the last Apostle faded from the scene? Carried as it would be by Family to Family throughout each generation?

    Yes, IF anyone knew God's name correctly, it was Jesus. And since NONE of the other stuff asked about EVER HAPPENED, the logical conclusion is that Jesus either did NOT know God's name correctly or IT SIMPLY WASN'T IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BOTHER WITH.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Why did Jesus need to pray so hard and so long to converse with God (Himself)?

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    I know what you're thinking, VoidEater!

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit