Book sealed to the learned but not to the unlearned.

by hoj 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Notverylikely, I suppose you are right. What can I say?

    I think you just did.

    The words of not only this prophecy, but many prophecies ARE going to be sealed to most and they will never get true understanding because they are either

    Or there is nothing to understand. It's an old collection of books written in a dead language with an approximate translation where even the slightest error in comma placement can change an entire meaning.

    I mean, you don't see me whipping out an old DOS 6.22 manual to figure our Solaris 10, do you?

    In order for it to be a prophecy, it has to predict something BEFORE it happens, otherwise it's not much of a prophecy, then, is it?

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    hoj,

    Let's get back to basics.

    As is pointed out, understand the immediate textual context as well as the context of the events (history, political, religious, etc.) that caused a passage to be written. "A text without a context is a pretext" otherwise its tail can be twisted any way you want.

    These writers wanted to affect the beliefs and practices of their own immediate community; call it propaganda if you wish.

    Remember also that only urban people (including scribes and possibly priests) could read and write, so we only know things from their point of view. Their opponents, the agrarian rural populace, was illiterate, so their views were not collected when the Scriptures were written. So we have a record from only one point of view.

    None of these people was writing to you. Since they were writing to their own immediate audience, you need to climb into their culture, into their way of thinking.

    Basically, the bulk of the OT writing was done over a relatively short period, say from Judah's Kings Hezekiah and Josiah down through the Exile, after which they were worked on and collated, likely by Ezra.

    The book of Daniel is unrelated, so it does not bear on Isaiah (not even on the latter part of Isaiah that was written during the Babylonian Captivity). The book of Daniel was written some 400 years after the Babylonian Captivity. These 2nd century Jewish writers collected a raft of stories that they cobbled together into a book about an early (probably mythical) hero and thus produced stories designed to meet their immediate local need. In this instance, the Jewish people were being persecuted mercilessly and the stories of Daniel in a den of lions was a good parable for their contemporary situation (164 BCE). The book of Daniel needs to be read with these thoughts in mind.

    For this reason, the writers of Daniel were not concerned at applying technical precision to history. Their histories were "written" for theological purposes ("historiography"). Thus the writers of Daniel made big mistakes; the original material that the writers of Daniel drew from had correctly linked with the history that said Nabonidus went mad; the writers of Daniel changed that to Nebuchadrezzar. The writers of Daniel said Jeremiah wrote of 70 years of desolations of the temple, where he said nothing of the sort. Daniel's authors got mixed up between Darius and Cyrus.

    Another thing you could research is the evolutopn of Yahwistic monotheism. At what point in their history did the urban people accept a monotheist YHWH (while the rural populace maintained YHWH along with other deities, including his wife)?

    Sorry to diverge well away from your issue, but I wanted to unblock the thinking. The Bible does not so much explain archaeology, rather it is itself an item of archaeology, a piece that reveals the culture of the community that created it.

    Doug

  • hoj
    hoj

    Tammy,

    And I don't feel comfortable applying this as a prophecy to today's age

    Do you see any of Isaiah's prophecy to be concerning our age? Some of it is said to be fulfilled 2000 years ago, some hundreds of years after his prophecy. But even that I feel has its fulfillment in the presence (referred to the second coming) of Christ. I don't see that the later chapters of Isaiah have been fulfilled yet.

    Do you feel that Daniel's sealed book was a different book? Do you feel the book of Revelation is a different sealed book? Do you feel those sealed books are in prophecies of our (or future) age? Ezekiel also referred to the same book but doesn't say that it was sealed. But Ezekiel proves that the sealed book in Revelation is the same book that is open in chapter 10 of Revelation, and therefore Ezekiel's book is the same book.

    But we are better off than we were before Christ. Far better off, since we are under grace and not under law. We each have the teachings, the capability, and the invitation of coming to God, through Christ, and in Spirit. I think more and more people are understanding and doing this.

    I agree, accept I think of the time of Christ being his presence, referred to the second coming of Christ. Those in the corporate Christ (body of Christ) are not under the law (doctrines of men).

  • hoj
    hoj

    Tammy,

    I'm not sure why my quote of your second paragraph didn't show in the above post. Here is what you said, which should be in the empty quote block above:

    But we are better off than we were before Christ. Far better off, since we are under grace and not under law. We each have the teachings, the capability, and the invitation of coming to God, through Christ, and in Spirit. I think more and more people are understanding and doing this.
  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR
    hoj, you are doing exactly what everyone else does when there is a confusing passage in the bible, layering on what you think it means by adding your own ideas and taking plain words and writing two paragraphs to explain what it means according to hoj.

    notverylikely This is what all Bible believers do. When I say, Bible believers, I mean Christians who are not Bible believers. Well they are but they are not. If you understand.

    They believe in the Bible but do not base their faith on it. They take the nice bits they like which support their beliefs and alter or ignore the bits they don't. Then make up bits of their own.

    The Bible warns, not to add or take away from it. That's no problem because they don't believe that bit. The Bible says that men spoke from God as they were born along by Holy Spirit. Nah, they don't believe that bit.

    Well some do, sometimes, other don't, always and sometimes. So they are Bible believers but they are not, though they are sometimes. Easy peasy when you get the hang of it.

    It's how the trick is done!

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Mad Sweeney's 21st Century Translation:

    Isa 29:11-12 My crazy ramblings are like a closed book that men give to an intelligent person saying, "Read this crap" and he answers, "I'm not reading your crazy ramblings, fool!" And when the book is given to a stupid person saying, "Read this crap" he answers, "I don't understand your crazy ramblings so I'll just believe them on faith."

  • tec
    tec

    I'm not sure why my quote of your second paragraph didn't show in the above post. Hoj

    At least you've figured out how to do that. I'm still just putting other's words in italics :)

    Do you see any of Isaiah's prophecy to be concerning our age? Some of it is said to be fulfilled 2000 years ago, some hundreds of years after his prophecy. But even that I feel has its fulfillment in the presence (referred to the second coming) of Christ. I don't see that the later chapters of Isaiah have been fulfilled yet.

    I think in Isaiah and most of the prophets, we see a similar pattern. Israel rebelling, losing knowledge and their place, then knowledge once again being poured out and bringing everyone to life. So I can and have seen this last bit in each of these books as concerning the second coming of Christ.

    However, Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

    Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

    So what does that mean? It should mean that everything written was fulfilled in Christ. I know that in Daniel, he was said to rest and then he would rise up to receive his reward, and in Ezekiel, the valley of bones were the Israelites who were going to receive life in them again. So in addition to seeing a future fulfillment, I have also considered that this life that Israel was to receive is the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent us. Even that the new 'heaven and earth' came into effect when that spirit was poured out.

    Is 'everything is accomplished' everything that Jesus had to do while he was here? Or everything that would ever have to be done?

    I know this isn't an answer. Its just something else to consider. Or at least something else that I consider.

    Do you feel that Daniel's sealed book was a different book? Do you feel the book of Revelation is a different sealed book? Do you feel those sealed books are in prophecies of our (or future) age? Ezekiel also referred to the same book but doesn't say that it was sealed. But Ezekiel proves that the sealed book in Revelation is the same book that is open in chapter 10 of Revelation, and therefore Ezekiel's book is the same book. -Hoj

    This is above my pay grade. But I hope I answered some of how I felt about this in the above.

    Tammy

    P.S. - Mad - Funny ramblings.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    When I say, Bible believers, I mean Christians who are not Bible believers. Well they are but they are not. If you understand.

    Gladiator-- I AM following the Bible when you see me as a Bible "waffler".

    How often did Jesus say or suggest "are you yet without understanding?"to an audience, those who were pedantically scouring the scriptures. He had various questions posed to him by the "People of the Book"who were greatly angered at his exposition of his Father. Jesus used the scriptures but he frequently made distinctions between what was written and what God is really wanting to express. Matt. 19 is only one instance of his critics trying to catch him waffling on the word.

    If "the servant is not above his master" then I will have to take the same criticism from you, Gladiator. And I freely admit to ineptitude in understanding God, and I welcome your gladius for splitting bone and marrow in the arena of thought.

    Maeve

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    not a captive

    Thank you for you reasoned response to my sarcastic comments.

    I will stop baiting Christians for a while and get back in my box.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Get back in your box for a rest, maybe. You wield your sword too well for it to be absent for long. It really is needed.

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