by hoj 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
Get back in your box for a rest, maybe. You wield your sword too well for it to be absent for long. It really is needed.
Agreed.
Your comments, Gladiator, make me examine my words and beliefs. I strive not to contradict myself or be hypocritical ( everyone does it to some extent, mind you, when confronted with different situations) but if someone thinks I am being so, then I would want to know. So I have the opportunity to defend myself, or correct the action that I was unaware of.
Tammy
As sweet as always.
Alas - Killing me with kindness does work - Gladiator
Yes...
WAIT! *shakes head*
I meant...
Tammy
(Just playing - I think you've shown that you can be pretty sweet, yourself)
Tammy, you said
At least you've figured out how to do that. I'm still just putting other's words in italics :)
It took me a while to figure it out, but then I discovered it by accident. Kind of like figuring out the mysteries. In the toolbar at the top of the reply window it has "styles." There is the triangle disclosure button to the right of it. Click it and "quote" is in the list. It inserts the quote box and then I copy and past into the box. When you hit enter it makes another box and you are inside of it. While in it if you click the triangle button again and then choose "Styles" again, the new box goes away. The next thing I want to discover is how to edit my profile and maybe use a signature.
I don't see that everything was fulfilled in Christ, but everything will be fulfilled in Christ. The Church is the body of Christ. Christ is manifest in them.
Here is some things that I see concerning the sealed books. First I saw all the seals coming off the sealed book in Revelation and right after all the seals are off and the last trumpet is blown (the trumpets being part of the last seal) there is a book open in the hand of a "mighty angel" which is described as if he is Jesus. It was the Jesus who was opening the seals and now the book is open in his hand. That puts Him there in the middle of the "tribulation." That disproved the pre-trib rapture doctrine for me.
Some would argue that it isn't the same book. About the only reason to deny that it is the same book is if you don't want to give up the doctrine. Ezekiel makes the connection. Ezekiel's book and John's open book are both bitter and sweet. I think Ezekiel's book and John's sealed book are both written on the inside and backside (or within and without). Ezekiel's book has lamentation, mourning, and woe. That would correspond to the tribulation going on while the seals are open in Revelation. So I feel they are the same book even though Ezekiel doesn't say that it is sealed. And he makes the connection between John's two books because some characteristics are common with one and some characteristics common with the other.
More evidence that Ezekiel's book is the same as John's book is that John used much from Ezekiel (and other prophets and the law) for his apocalypse. Both Ezekiel and John have a presence before God, then they both have the sealed book, they both have tribulation, they both have those who are sealed from slaughter, and they both have multitudes slain. And it is all in the same order in both writings.
If Ezekiel and John wrote of the same book, it might be easier to accept that Daniel wrote of the same book that was sealed until the time of the end, but then the wise would understand. John wrote about the time of the end. John's sealed book becomes open (understood) right after the last trump when the Lord God Almighty begins to reign and Jesus comes in the clouds. Of course these aren't literal clouds. They are like the clouds of witnesses.
Now we should be ready to figure that Isaiah's sealed book is the same book. He gives us information that the others didn't, which is how the book got sealed. It is sealed to the learned (those who have been taught) but not to the unlearned. They just need a teacher. And this is in agreement with my view of the Garden of Eden showing how error entered the religious world. Once they ate of the error, they taught the error and they reject the truth taught by fruit trees in the garden. The book is sealed to them and their students.
I don't see that everything was fulfilled in Christ, but everything will be fulfilled in Christ. The Church is the body of Christ. Christ is manifest in them.
Ha ha! It worked! Thanks, Hoj.
Now to respond to that quote:
How about 'everything IS fulfilled in Christ.'
I think that covers past-present-future, as it should.
As for everything else about Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelations, I don't have anything to add. I see your connection; I'm not sure what it means. But I will keep your thoughts in mind when I read the books, and I thank you for the perspective.
Peace to you,
Tammy
About the only reason to deny
So...you need to understand that "not evidence against" doesn't equal "evidence for"
More evidence
No...the first thing you gave wasn't "evidence for"...it was simply "not evidence against"
Of course these aren't literal clouds
How do you know this?
It is sealed to the learned (those who have been taught) but not to the unlearned. They just need a teacher. And this is in agreement with my view of the Garden of Eden showing how error entered the religious world. Once they ate of the error, they taught the error and they reject the truth taught by fruit trees in the garden. The book is sealed to them and their students.
See, again, purely a layered on and artifical interpretation based on...I have no idea.
See, again, purely a layered on and artifical interpretation based on...I have no idea.
Do you suggest that there be NO interpretation? I don't start off with an interpretation and try to make it fit. I search for what it means, whatever that might be.
Do you suggest that there be NO interpretation?
I didn't suggest that. But since you did, why should there be?
I don't start off with an interpretation and try to make it fit. I search for what it means, whatever that might be.
Well....you kinda are. You are stringing together all these things and in some cases using "evidence" which really isn't and in other cases using "there is no reason not to think xyz"....which is kinda like the use of "evidently". There's no reason to think a certain thing or not, but since it fits your narrative, you will use the lack of a reason not to think that thing as poitive evidence when that's not at all what it is.
So...you kinda are doing that. Although, to be fair, you are trying to take a lot of different writings that were mystery writings and vague on purpose and never meant to be cobbled together into a book by a church with a religio-political agenda and trying to derive some meaning out of it.
I didn't suggest that. But since you did, why should there be?
Why should parables, allegories, dreams, prophecies, and mysteries be interpreted?
So...you kinda are doing that. Although, to be fair, you are trying to take a lot of different writings that were mystery writings and vague on purpose and never meant to be cobbled together into a book by a church with a religio-political agenda and trying to derive some meaning out of it.
You are right. The writings were never meant to be used by those with an agenda. They were written to warn against those with an agenda.
Why should parables, allegories, dreams, prophecies, and mysteries be interpreted?
Why indeed?
You are right. The writings were never meant to be used by those with an agenda. They were written to warn against those with an agenda.
There you go again, deciding what they were meant for! If your agenda is to "interpret" them, then you will fill in the blanks in the message with things that resonate with you that may or may not have anything to do with the writers original intention since they shrouded it in mystery. That's why they are mystery writings!
