Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus? (page 22)

leavingwt

PSac -- It's not your version of God that worries me.

tec

You won't have to, God already knows.

Jesus doesn't always answer in a way that is "cut n dry"

I think He wants us to learn for ourselves, and directed his teachings to love and mercy and forgiveness, rather than have us follow a rule for the sake of following a rule.

Less corruptible. (I feel like I'm repeating myself)

Tammy

Second part is that Jesus was silent on many topics currently debated. He expected us to act in love, and that can mean different things. I personally think that this means rules get thrown out the window, and each situation should be considered on its own merit- keeping love and mercy foremost in mind. If you have love and mercy within you, then you will act in accordance to it. No rule can stand against that or even replace that. I mentioned this earlier in the thread.

I'm not talking about what was recorded about what Jesus said. The bible may as well not exist for this discussion, although I understand it is difficult to separate the Christ from the Bible. I am trying to talk about Christians who claim to know Jesus personally.

In a close and personal relationship that you have had with another person, did/do you believe that you know that person inside and out, 100%? And do you believe that every person who shared a close relationship with that same person would see things in the exact, 100% way as you do?

Of course not - but if it is a person I actually know, I am certainly capable of asking what their view is on any subject, and receiving an answer that I can relay to anyone who might ask. Christians appear to be completely incapable of doing the same when it comes to Christ.

PSacramento

PSac -- It's not your version of God that worries me.

I feel your concern, but don't worry, there is only One God and his is all knowing.

If God created US, we can't be greater than our creator, can we?

So if we can love and understand each other this way, surely God, how giave us this love and understanding, can do the same.

And if there is no God then we have nothing to worry about.

PSacramento

Of course not - but if it is a person I actually know, I am certainly capable of asking what their view is on any subject, and receiving an answer that I can relay to anyone who might ask. Christians appear to be completely incapable of doing the same when it comes to Christ.

If YOU were God and your friend asked you a question and you gave him/her a reply, a reply coming from GOD, would he'she take it as advice? suggestion? opinion or commandment?

And how does one decide for oneself, exercise free will when GOD Commands?

superpunk

If YOU were God and your friend asked you a question and you gave him/her a reply, a reply coming from GOD, would he'she take it as advice? suggestion? opinion or commandment?

And how does one decide for oneself, exercise free will when GOD Commands?

This changes the topic of conversation from;

"How does God feel about X?" (according to his pals who know him and talk to him)

to

"How do God's pals feel about how God feels about X?"

I've no desire to get into that.

Deputy Dog

PSac

I don't doubt that SOME christians are special and elected by God, no doubt what so ever, I just don't think that God palces them higher than any other Christian...

This is the second time you've said something like that. What are talking about? I believe ALL Christians are "God's elect" called by God, not just some.

...nor do I think that 'destiny" is forced upon them and that it still remains their choice to assume that mantle.

What a burdensome way to look at the Christian life. You've covinced me you guys who have chosen to "assume that mantle", must be the special Christians and you will have a special place in heaven. You see, I'm just a lowly Christian who didn't choose God. I'm being forced to keep his grace even though I'm not working for it, and I didn't ask for it. I guess that means I'm just gonna make it. I'd just like to know what is so special about those of you that choose God over the Athiest who don't. Are you smarter, more "spiritual"? What?

tec

I am trying to talk about Christians who claim to know Jesus personally.

Maybe we aren't meshing here because we have different ideas on what knowing Jesus personally means?

Tammy

tec

DD - You know what's funny about your last comment? It makes it seem as if we're all debating the importance of being humble, as well as trying to be fair and just toward our Atheist/or other religion brothers and sisters.

Our hearts are all in the right place, I think. We're just approaching it from two opposite angles. Because I would also ask you, 'what makes you so special that God chose you and not someone else?'

Tammy

not a captive

Superpunk,

In what I know of Christ there are these things: knowing him has a beginning and spaces in between. But it does begin with just knowing he 's really there. Like the story in John 9:

A blind man is healed. All he knows of the man who healed him is that a man, Jesus, put mud and spit on his eyes and he washed his eyes-- and he could see. He didn't really "know" who the man was. But later when he was asked by some hostile questioners, he said the man who healed him had to be a man of God. The Jews reviled the man and told him he was a sinner through and through and drove him off. Jesus found him and asked if he believed in the Son of Man. Trusting this Godly healer of him, the man said simply "Sir, tell me that Imay believe in him." "You are looking at him; he is speaking to you." "The man said Lord, I believe."

I say this because it pretty well describes some of my beginning of "knowing" Jesus and God. That story was my defense when a fine Christian woman challenged me on being a Christian at all because of doctrinal issues. Her Bible study group that I was in for several weeks, claimed to be non-denominational. But they emphasized that they teach that any who do not believe the Trinity and election cannot truly know God and certainly do not know Christ.

I told her that the blind man knew Jesus without her doctrine. I know him that much and am trying to know him more by trusting him and wanting to do God's will.

Something else I think about is why we make rules for others even other Christians: Jesus is speaking to crowd when a man called out "Master, tell my brother to give me a share of our inheritance.""My friend, Jesus replied,"Who appointed me the Judge or the arbiter of your claims?...Watch, and be on your guard against avarice of any kind." Not too helpful? Jesus put responsibility on the man who asked the question. He wanted --what? fair play? an orderly neat existence?

So it looks like Jesus calls us out (that's what ekklesia means, after all) to take responsibility for our own discipleship. Including sexual issues.It would seem that only in institutional religion you make rules for conformity of behavior. But the way it looksto me, is that Jesus worked the message of reconciliation by introducing God to people and it was on them to decide if they wanted to do God's will and then search it out--not take a vote on it. If someone makes a homosexual Church, it may lack a certain amount of open discourse on some things -- the way an Army chaplain has to scoot around the verses that talk about loving you enemy. But my dad was a soldier, a friend I discover now is gay. They will have to reckon with what is true from Jesus. I talk to them about the Jesus I know an dthe Bible as I understand it.

Have I described a Christianity that resembles a poorly organized camp-out? Strip all the veneer and robes away and put infra-red sensors to detect spiritual brain activity, and watch what people are really doing now, it already looks like a goofy scout jamboree.

I know one thing, if you force conformity to make it look like everyone is in agreement, you will breed hypocrites.

I don't thing making doors on churches makes good Christians. Jesus didn't get real exclusive. Don't go "inside". Go "outside".People will follow or they won't. And people will come together and talk if they want to, "wherever two or more are gathered together..." If people are going to not keep peace and want sectarianism, they will divide. You don't have to throw them out. "By their fruits you will know them" is a way to figure if some are on the right road. Talk to them . Gather with them. Meet together to encourage one another and be a Christian.

Who's to stop you? The "Church"? Well, yes, if you have to go mainstream-- then you'll have to deal with all these doctrinal things once and for all. Have some occasional "new light", pick a great one to rule over you, and figure a way to disfellowship dissenters.

That's what I've been thinking I am learning from Jesus.

Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

Share this