Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus? (page 26)

PSacramento

Better to have lived and burned...

Under those circumstances I tend to agree.

"Better to rule in Hell than serve in heaven"..

Yes, I know an extreme view point but one that almost is understandbale if God were a closed minded tyrant.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

The question is: What are vessels of wrath made fit for destruction?

I see both predestination and choice in Romans.

So does everyone, but as I've tried to explain, "choice" does not equal autonomous free will. In other words, God predetermines the outcome of every "choice" ever made or every choice yet to be made.

Here a list of some things as humans (in our human nature) we can not do apart from God.

1) We can not seek God. Romans 3:11 2) We can not do good. Romans 3:12 Psalm 14:3 3) We can not come to Christ. John 6:44, 65 4) We can not hear his word. John 8:43,47 5) We can not receive the Comforter or Spirit of truth. John 14:17 6) We can not receive the teaching of the Holy Ghost. 1Corinthians 2:14 7) We can not submit to God's law. Romans 8:7 8) We can not please God. Romans 8:8 9) We can not cease from sin. Romans 7:19 10) We can not say that Jesus is the Lord. 1Corinthians 12:3

leavingwt

PSac -- You're a father, so let's ask you. If you knew before your wife got pregnant, that the child would born blind and would have a disease that would cause a slow, painful death over 20 or 30 years, would you reconsider getting pregnant or would you carry on? (The blilndness and disease are nothing compared to an eternity of Hell, but I would never allow that to happen if I knew I could prevent it.)

Does that make any sense?

Deputy Dog

Wow you guys just are not saticfied with the way God runs his universe.

tec

I'm going to look at your scriptures, DD, but I would like you to consider these ones:

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this [end] we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is [the] Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

There is a clear distinction here between all men, and those who believe.

and

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: `[As] I live,' says the Lord God, `I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

If He has made it so the wicked cannot turn from his way, then how does this make sense?

Tammy

PSacramento

PSac -- You're a father, so let's ask you. If you knew before your wife got pregnant, that the child would born blind and would have a disease that would cause a slow, painful death over 20 or 30 years, would you reconsider getting pregnant or would you carry on? (The blilndness and disease are nothing compared to an eternity of Hell, but I would never allow that to happen if I knew I could prevent it.)

Does that make any sense?

Dude, that is a tough question, far more than you may realize...

I understand your point and I conceed that it would, possibly, be a very cruel existence, but, look at Stephen Hawkins as an example, even the most crippled of Us can leave our mark on this world, but I understand the point of your questin as it apples to predestination and the unevitable, painful, outcome that it presents for those the God turns away from, that is why I can't believe in THAT type, I just can't, it goes against ALL I have witnessed and all I have felt and all I have experienced in regards to God.

If I am wrong then I prefer it to be so, for that God is no better than the God of the JW's that kills indiscrimenetly, billions of people, many of whom have done Good and have fullfilled his "requirements" as Per Mattew and James ( to cite 2 examples).

leavingwt

Wow you guys just are not saticfied with the way God runs his universe.

He created me in such a way that I'm capable of that, yes. Moreover, this is why he has predestined me to Hell.

superpunk

Wow you guys just are not saticfied with the way God runs his universe.

FAITH - Where using the cognitive abilities the Creator has blessed you with, to analyze the actions of the Creator, is considered a personal affront to the Creator.

superpunk

PSac -- You're a father, so let's ask you. If you knew before your wife got pregnant, that the child would born blind and would have a disease that would cause a slow, painful death over 20 or 30 years, would you reconsider getting pregnant or would you carry on? (The blilndness and disease are nothing compared to an eternity of Hell, but I would never allow that to happen if I knew I could prevent it.)

In this case are you not also causing your child's torturous death? (wherein you are God, of course)

Deputy Dog

Did you ever stop to think that satisfaction with God is really true worship?

Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

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