I to would like to see djeggnog find the reference.
look forward to the response to the elder to!
Getting understanding about the New Generation Light from a JW Elder
by garyneal 96 Replies latest members private
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djeggnog
@TD:
Where and when did The Watchtower state that the children of Joseph were included in "that generation" of Exodus 1:6?
If you can do this without the personal rancor..., I'd appreciate that, [too].
I'm thinking, Why don't I begin my response to your question with a little light rancor first?
[rancor] Why haven't you undertaken a study of the Bible with one of Jehovah's Witnesses? What aren't you a baptized Witness? What possible difference does it make to you what the Watchtower magazine states about anything when you are not putting faith in either Jehovah God and in His son, the Lord Jesus Christ? You once told me that your interest in the Watchtower "is purely academic" because you don't consider yourself to be a religious individual so why exactly would it matter to you what any particular verse in the Bible says? [/rancor]
The Bible itself adds the words at the end of Exodus 1:6:
"... and all that generation."
Also, here are a couple of quotes from the Watchtower:
"As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" ("Christ's Presence-What Does it Mean to You?" w08 2/15, p. 24, ¶15)
"The word 'generation' usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event." ("Christ's Presence-What Does it Mean to You?" w08 2/15, p. 25 [box])
As I have updated my notes on this point somewhat, I'm appending them here.
[NOTES]
Since the separation of sheep from goats doesn't begin until "immediately after" the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29), and Jesus specifically stated at Matthew 24:34 'this generation would not pass away until all these things [that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] have occurred,' including the tribulation, then it would seem that just as Joseph's contemporaries were still living when Joseph died, then some of Jesus spiritual brothers would still be alive after the tribulation.
The fact that our current year of 2010 is 96 years removed from the year 1914 does not help one do any more than speculate as to the year when the end will come, for we arrive at the year 2024 when counting 110 years forward from 1914, for Joseph's siblings, Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim (who were born in Egypt) as well as Joseph's nephews and nieces lived during Joseph's lifetime, making all of them contemporaries of Joseph.
Now trying to prove Jesus' wrong when he indicated that no man knows "that day or the hour" is such a ridiculous exercise as trying the calculate the year when "the end will come," but it'll come when the good news will have been [satisfactorily] preached in all the earth, which is something that Jesus also said (Matthew 24:14), for if Jesus did know 'the day or hour' when he said this, why would he have lied?
Berating spiritual-minded members of the GB or other Christians for doing what they can to encourage Christians to stay awake and keep them from going to sleep when they need to be vigilant with a view to prayer is evidently the preoccupation of some, but remember just as the Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Hebrews 7:28), Jehovah uses men today that are just as imperfect, who may at times have gotten it wrong and might even have said some zany things they we might wish they did not say. But most of us here know more of what things the Bible teaches [than] most the truth because of the work of such dedicated "men," both past and present, including Jesus, including Paul, that have been doing their best to 'keep watch over our souls.' (Hebrews 13:17)
Firstly, "the term 'generation' as used by Jesus [at Matthew 24:34] refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." (wt95 11/1, p. 17, ¶6) Secondly, Jesus compared the generation in his day to the one in Noah's day at [Matthew 24:37-39], it seems clear that the people in Noah's generation paralleled the people in "this generation" which began when the sign of Jesus' second coming became manifest in the year 1914. (I would take note the use of the word "this generation" as they are used at Genesis 7:1.] Thirdly, even if though we are able to determine when "this generation" began, we would still be unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."
Having said this, should we give consideration to what Exodus 1:6 says regarding the death of Joseph, Jacob's/Israel's son, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," then based on how old Joseph was when he died -- 110 -- then his contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers" and Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died.
Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Joseph dies in 1657 BC at the age of 110. Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that became manifest (or "born") in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, which would include not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons and to his nephews and nieces that were alive when Joseph died, all of these being "that generation" (Exodus 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign, they all of them bearing witness to the composite sign.
The clarification made in the article, "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," which might better be described as "increased light" instead of "new light," which has been the cause of so much confusion is this:
[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end." ["" (w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14)]
I'm pretty sure that his use of "overlapping lives" to illustrate what it was Jesus meant by "this generation" at Matthew 24:34 will be re-thought and refined later, but here's the point:
Nobody knows the "day and hour" when the end will come; Jesus even said so (Matthew 24:36). The sign has both a beginning and an end, and so following the "death" of the sign -- the great tribulation -- "this generation" will then have passed away, the end will come and "immediately after the tribulation of those days," some of the contemporaries of the sign, God's anointed ones, will be on hand to see "the sign of the Son of man [that] will appear in heaven," that is, when everyone in the world will discern "the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29, 30)
@ wasblind:
where you at? [TD] talkin' to ya'
I see TD talking more at me than to me. I think he's just having fun on the 'net, which is fine, because I have had a bit of fun here, too, but he turns me off because he's doesn't try to hide his cynicism and my talking to him left me thinking I could just as well be talking to a pig about the good news of God's kingdom (no offense, @TD). Without one first having been taught, I don't believe it's possible for anyone to be able to comprehend without twisting them beyond recognition the more difficult, "hard to understand" things that the Bible teaches without faith. (Matthew 7:6; 2 Peter 3:15, 16)
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TD
djeggnog,
As my wife's CO brother likes to state at family gatherings: "If you didn't read it in The Watchtower; the Slave did not say it."
I've read your notes; respect your right to your views, etc. but you have not provided the requested quote.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
After reading the lengthy "explanations" of the new generation doctrine from the elder and purported JWs on this board, a few points stick out.
First, there is an attempt to downplay the significance of the generation teaching, for example characterizing it as not a "core" doctrine or admitting that it could be a candidate for further "clarification" at a later date. This reveals an underlying unease with this piece of Watchtower theology. That doesn't surprise me. I would imagine that many thinking JWs (and that's not an oxymoron) are uncomfortable with this doctrine and would prefer not to have attention called to it.
Second, the length of the explanations as well as admissions that this doctrine is "hard to understand" and difficult to comprehend remind me of how other religions explain their unusual doctrines, such as the Trinity. When someone has to spend several paragraphs to explain a simple sentence (e.g., Matt. 24:34) and still admits that it's "difficult to understand"...well, there's probably a reason it's difficult to understand. I guess it's just "a mystery" kind of like the Trinity.
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Gayle
OMG, I like your analogy "a mystery" kind of like the Trinity.
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Black Sheep
humility is a requirement for anyone to be taught by Jehovah
humility is a requirement for anyone to be taught by Allah
humility is a requirement for anyone to be taught by Jesus (Christianity, including Branch Davidian, People's Temple, Mormon, etc.)
humility is a requirement for anyone to be taught by Buddah
humility is a requirement for anyone to be taught by Father (Moonies)
humility is a requirement for anyone to be taught by Charlie (The Manson Family)
This is nothing more than a statement of your faith that your particular religious leader is getting his directions from a supernatural source. Without evidence, it is just circular reasoning.
The changing Generation doctrines are evidence that Jehovah is not giving the GB any correct teachings. Being 'taught by Jehovah' (Watchtower version) isn't humility, it is gullibility.
What scriptures promote gullibility as a desirable trait for Christians?
Cheers
Chris
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jwfacts
Certainly the generations issue is not the central article of our Christian faith. Rather, our primary doctrine concerns love of God, Jesus and neighbor, as well as understanding God’s purpose in creating humans to live according to his will.
I love how JWs come back to that. When it gets tricky, suddenly the religion is simply about love of God and neighbour. But isn't every religion? If you say every religion teaches that, they then have to revert back to "but correct understanding of doctrine is important for salvation".
There is so much emphasis on Old Testament examples, rather than discussion of what a generation meant to Jesus and those he was talking to. The elder says:
So that being the case, there would be anointed ones that saw the very start of Christ’s Presence (1914) but would die before the Great Tribulation. There are others that would not see the start of 1914 but see the Great Tribulation. So the generation would extend from the anointed at 1914 to the anointed during the Great Tribulation. But this doesn’t mean an indefinite amount of time because, for it to be truly a generation as described in Exodus 1:6, their lives must overlap. Yet a generation is still a relatively short period of time.
This is such a stupid concept. My generation means the time I lived in. Some of my generation will die before I die, and some people will be born during the time I am alive, but my generation does not include a time after myself and everyone born the year I was born have died.
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TD
I guess it's just "a mystery" kind of like the Trinity.
Yes....and if you question it, you're simply an unwashed 'pig' with no appreciation for the more important things.
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djeggnog
@TD:
"As my wife's CO brother likes to state at family gatherings: ‘If you didn't read it in The Watchtower; the Slave did not say it.’"
Ok, @TD. I’m not at all surprised though that your "wife’s CO’s brother" didn’t bother to mention to you that whenever we are discussing God’s word with anyone that we are engaging in sacred service in God’s spiritual temple, a concept in which you most certainly have never taken an academic interest, for I’m pretty sure that the concept of a spiritual temple, let alone the fact that I am giving direct service to God in it whenever I tap out a reply to someone, and whether that person be a Christian or not, is just foolishness to you, but it’s direct service to God for me, sacred service that I take quite seriously.
Let me be clear: If the slave says it, then all Jehovah’s Witnesses say it, but if I tell you, for example, that the Bible indicates that Moses was 80 years old when he led the nation of Israel out of Egypt, then every one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, including the slave, would say this, even if you didn’t read this in the Watchtower. Or, as another example, if I should tell you that the Bible indicates that Jerusalem lay desolate for 70 years from 607 BC until a remnant of Jewish exiles from Babylon returned there in 537 BC, then every one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, including the slave, would say this, even if you didn’t read this in the Watchtower. When a clarification of a particular Bible passage, like the one at Matthew 24:34, is made, then all Jehovah’s Witnesses are found speaking in agreement according to the clarification that was made, because true Christians, as 1 Corinthians 1:10 states, will all ‘speak in agreement, and are united in the same mind, same line of thought.’
You come here and talk about this and that, tell me about your wife, who I don’t know, of course, but she is my spiritual sister, right(?), and about your brother-in-law, who I don’t know, but who is also my spiritual brother, and then I’m thinking how you are no doubt the head of your household, but not the spiritual head of it, because for some reason you don’t want to make a dedication to God, don’t want to get baptized and get your white robe so that you can enter God’s spiritual temple -- which is a holy place like our God, who is holy -- and eventually be found standing before God’s throne in the earthly realm of God’s temple, right next to me, holding one of these palm branches in your hands, having come out of the great tribulation.
What with all that you’re learning from the Bible about "this generation," you could be giving a witness informally in God’s temple, kinda like I’m doing right now as I tap this post out, and be rendering direct service to God yourself, and by that I mean direct service to God in His spiritual house. You love studying the Bible and talking to folks about the Bible, so why not make it count as sacred service? Whenever you have a family study at home, that would be direct service to God. Whenever you should attend meetings at the Kingdom Hall with your wife, that would be sacred service to God. Should you raise your hand to participate in the Q&As had there during the meetings, it would be sacred service, all of it direct service to God.
"I've read your notes; respect your right to your views, etc. but you have not provided the requested quote."
What I quoted to you was quoted directly from the Bible, from Exodus 1:6, and nothing that you might read in the Watchtower trumps what the Bible says, so what "quote" do you need? With every issue of the Watchtower our understanding of what things the Bible teaches is tweaked, but the Bible never changes and Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize it as being authoritative over anything that we or that any man might put into print.
Maybe someone else here on the board will be able to provide to you "the requested quote."
@Olin Moyles Ghost
After reading the lengthy "explanations" of the new generation doctrine from the elder and purported JWs on this board, a few points stick out.
"[T]he length of the explanations as well as admissions that this doctrine is ‘hard to understand’ and difficult to comprehend remind me of how other religions explain their unusual doctrines, such as the Trinity."
I’m rather long-winded so you really shouldn’t view what explanations I provided with a view to giving some context to understanding Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:34 as being on a par with the doctrine of the Trinity. No one can comprehend the Trinity; no way that anyone can explain it in such a way to anyone that it will be fully comprehended. However, the clarification I provided here regarding "this generation" can be comprehended even if it should turn out that you do not yet understand it; other Jehovah’s Witnesses, including elders, are currently wrestling with it, but eventually they’ll get it.
"When someone has to spend several paragraphs to explain a simple sentence (e.g., Matt. 24:34) and still admits that it's ‘difficult to understand’...well, there's probably a reason it's difficult to understand."
Yes, <g> there probably is a reason. This was such a profound statement you made here.
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garyneal
Or, as another example, if I should tell you that the Bible indicates that Jerusalem lay desolate for 70 years from 607 BC until a remnant of Jewish exiles from Babylon returned there in 537 BC, then every one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, including the slave, would say this, even if you didn’t read this in the Watchtower.
Show me where in the Bible does it say that. Your spiritual brother, scholar (the one who posts on this board), has so far not been able to do this.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/195431/3/Help-with-another-607-vs-587-question